Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Stan Alder on April 04, 2015, 03:35:07 PM
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I just acquired a trio of buff large fowl, and the egg color is very pale from both pullets, almost white...I am hearing from other breeders that egg color is a real problem with the buffs...can I improve it with what I have , or would I be able to get to an acceptable color faster by crossing to a wheaten with good egg color..., or should I just look for other buffs with better color??? Hope that's not too many questions..lol...just looking for experienced help in deciding the best way to go...thanks
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If you are not satisfied with the egg color, why not try to purchase hatching eggs with good/better color? That way you can see what you are getting.
I think I would try to stick within the buff color, as it is a long road back once the outcross is made.
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Bantam buffs lay great "egg shaped" eggs that are fairly large for a bantam and generally have good color.
Large fowl are another story. Their eggs are more in the medium size range on an egg scale, with some small and sometimes large. Shape is OK. Color isn't anything to write home about, but mine are getting a little better each year.
If your eggs are almost white, I think that is easier to deal with than green. Hatch as many as you can and select for egg color and then size. Develop three lines from the trio next year, by putting the cock over the pullets and the cockerels over the two hens. If the eggs have a hint of blue the genes are there for the desired color and with enough breeding you can bring it out. Keep in mind after an extended period of laying the color will fade and especially at this time of year that may be what you are seeing.
I'm taking my own advice from above, but at the same time working on outcrosses. As Mike said an outcross is a long road, but you can do both options at the same time.
My LF blacks lay large and extra large "blue" eggs. For those and other reasons I crossed them to buff and here are some of the chicks.
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Mike, I have only heard of one buff breeder with good egg color....no one else claims even decent that I have heard of....I'm trying to get eggs or chicks from that one breeder, but having a little difficulty ;) My eggs are very pale blue...no noticeable green tint, but almost white...they have a blue tint in a carton of leghorn eggs, but in a carton of Ameraucanas, they look white...and as John described his, mine have a pretty good shape, but are small to medium in size.... ...my thinking is that if I stay with good type from a nice wheaten cockerel, I could have acceptable egg color and size increase in the second generation, and maybe be back to acceptable buff feather color in 3 generations with a good blue egg??? I just don't have any experience in building egg color, and am not sure if these numbers are realistic.
John...those chicks look better than I would have expected with a black cross...how many generatios do you expect it to be before you get a consistent buff color??? My breeding plan is a three pen rotation, starting with birds from at least two, hopefully 3 families... One thing I am really unclear on is the effect of the blue gene...what I have now are much lighter than an F1 leghorn Ameraucana cross..are there levels of 'blue'? I mean if you are dealing only with the blue gene, can you have different shades of blue if no other gene is involved??
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One thing I am really unclear on is the effect of the blue gene...what I have now are much lighter than an F1 leghorn Ameraucana cross..are there levels of 'blue'? I mean if you are dealing only with the blue gene, can you have different shades of blue if no other gene is involved??
Yes, to some extent because the blue color can fade when a hen is laying in full swing mode.
In my opinion a blue egg with no other color genes involved (tinted thru dark brown) is a very light pastel blue. The prettier blue eggs probably involve some added gene(s) for tinted shell color. Once brown is introduced you end up with shades from what some would say is a desirable turquoise to an ugly olive green.
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Stan, since you have a Trio, why not start with mating the male to those females and then see what the offspring bring? If you get better color from the F1 pullets, I'd take the best cockerel and breed it back to his sisters. Might even wanna do that another time or two.
On the other hand, since you are just starting out anyways, you might wanna get some good colored eggs, hatch them out, and then close your flock and go from there.
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Also, if you plan an outcross with wheatens use a wheaten hen that lays true blue eggs...compensation mating. Barbara Campbell and Royce, as I recall, have both had wheatens lay white eggs and I've had some that were so light they almost looked white.
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In recent years I have had a few brown reds do the same thing - nearly white egg. I figure they only carry one copy of the O gene. I think it is important to use roosters for breeding that hatched only from true blue eggs, but I'm not afraid to use these females to produce more females provided they are very good in other respects. But I would not use a male bird out of one of those pale blue egg layers for breeding.
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And another thing...One reason Leghorn egg shells are so white, so I've read, is they carry a recessive brown shell inhibiting gene. When present in Ameraucanas this could eliminate any tint or brown and produce the true blue egg I mentioned...the real deal and a lighter blue than most want to see.
I've always said LF wheatens and silvers have different "type" than the other varieties and that wheatens remind me more of leghorns, although not as much today as years ago. I created LF blacks, whites, buffs, lavenders and others using brown egg layers. I suspect white egg layers were used by Wayne to create LF wheatens and that would account for the difference in type and that fact that in years past they and the silvers laid the bluest eggs of all the varieties.
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Actually, Wayne had kept a flock of easter eggers for many years prior to getting into Ameraucanas. I'm sure he selected for the best egg color for those many years. In fact, a little known secret was that many of Wayne's eggs used to go to McMurray hatchery via the late Harry Halbach to produce their "araucana" chicks. At least that is what I had heard years ago. Don't remember if that came directly from Wayne, but I think so.
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I did have 2 BW hens that laid white eggs. One of them had the very slightest of blue hues to it when side by side with the other. Honestly, I can't recall for sure now what color the eggs were when they first started laying but I do remember they came from linebreeding where I was trying to get rid of the brown egg gene modifiers that were causing the eggs to be overly greenish. I do remember identifying the brown from my #13 line and got rid of all of them. I also remember breeding those two #7 BW's to each of my males to see if I could color test the egg color from them. Out of that I got two #3 pullets that laid pure white eggs.
Now, this year I have a #1 and a #8 that are both laying a white egg and yet their sisters are all laying blue. I've gotta check my records from last year but I'm betting the same male was used for both pens. If not, I'll be scratching my head for awhile.
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An excerpt from Ameraucana History in the ABC by Mike Gilbert
"Silvers - I used a cross of white ameraucana with silver leghorn, still working to get good male color. Black was difficult to get solid colored males. Belgian D\'Anvers, Black Orpingtons, etc. were used. Blue was easy once we had black. Blue wheaten was easy once we had wheaten. This only covers the bantams. I developed the first strain of large silvers, the kind Duane Urch has sold for years, using ...easter egg fowl and nothing but. That\'s probably why the female coloring never was good. The second time around I used Silver Leghorn\'s from McMurray with easter egg fowl from Wayne Meredith and am still working on them. This could go on and on, but what does it matter at this point.
I used some diluted white Leghorn blood in my LF lavenders many years ago . Cleaned up the green tint in a hurry . Good layers of true blue eggs . At this point you can not see the influence . You struggle with type and white lobes for awhile . I believe I shared this with John but this is the first post of this on a club site .
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Thanks Jerry. Your post brought back a lot of old memories. How the years fly by!
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That's interesting Jerry....I happen to have a few F1 leghorn/Ameraucana pullets that are laying a bunch of pretty blue eggs... If I can't find a blue egg laying buff I might throw a couple of them in with the buff to see what happens.....
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Mike: Interesting that you mention this. We've had a few unexpected progeny from our brown reds. Pictured below is one of two sisters - who are perhaps e+/e+? Wouldn't think much of it, but the two are nearly identical. In this case, it is nice of them to lay the near-white egg so as to not perpetuate things further. We have not had this crop up in our otherwise limited experience. I have noticed, however, that we are losing egg color the other way - going toward khaki. Coincidentally, we selected against those that had 'shafting' in their plumage and have ended up with a couple of really dark girls (one is black, save for a tad bit of leakage). Still have some learning to do!
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/2a9405c0-b3d3-4942-91e6-120468af67cd_zpsesp1subu.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_4686_zpsz8cueio0.jpg)
Of course the ones that are different become the kids' favorites - these are our "Blondies". Super friendly and great layers, thank goodness.
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Bantam buffs lay great "egg shaped" eggs that are fairly large for a bantam and generally have good color.
Large fowl are another story. Their eggs are more in the medium size range on an egg scale, with some small and sometimes large. Shape is OK. Color isn't anything to write home about, but mine are getting a little better each year.
If your eggs are almost white, I think that is easier to deal with than green. Hatch as many as you can and select for egg color and then size. Develop three lines from the trio next year, by putting the cock over the pullets and the cockerels over the two hens. If the eggs have a hint of blue the genes are there for the desired color and with enough breeding you can bring it out. Keep in mind after an extended period of laying the color will fade and especially at this time of year that may be what you are seeing.
I'm taking my own advice from above, but at the same time working on outcrosses. As Mike said an outcross is a long road, but you can do both options at the same time.
My LF blacks lay large and extra large "blue" eggs. For those and other reasons I crossed them to buff and here are some of the chicks.
John, how many generations back to the black cross do these chicks go?
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Bantam buffs lay great "egg shaped" eggs that are fairly large for a bantam and generally have good color.
Large fowl are another story. Their eggs are more in the medium size range on an egg scale, with some small and sometimes large. Shape is OK. Color isn't anything to write home about, but mine are getting a little better each year.
If your eggs are almost white, I think that is easier to deal with than green. Hatch as many as you can and select for egg color and then size. Develop three lines from the trio next year, by putting the cock over the pullets and the cockerels over the two hens. If the eggs have a hint of blue the genes are there for the desired color and with enough breeding you can bring it out. Keep in mind after an extended period of laying the color will fade and especially at this time of year that may be what you are seeing.
I'm taking my own advice from above, but at the same time working on outcrosses. As Mike said an outcross is a long road, but you can do both options at the same time.
My LF blacks lay large and extra large "blue" eggs. For those and other reasons I crossed them to buff and here are some of the chicks.
John, were those chicks hatched this season? If not do you have pictures of how they came out? Also how come you got some buff colored chicks. I thought E was dominant over eWh
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John, how many generations back to the black cross do these chicks go?
Although I tried a buff/black outcross years ago I gave up on it, as I recall, after the first year. I have made the cross again this year and plan to follow thru, knowing it could take several years to get back to pure buff color.
John, were those chicks hatched this season? If not do you have pictures of how they came out? Also how come you got some buff colored chicks. I thought E was dominant over eWh
The chicks in the photo (reply #2) are from one of this season's hatches. The light colored chicks are actually dominant white, although they show some buff as does the black chick. E is dominant, but buff is powerful and leaks thru.
I'm considering culling all the buff split chicks that carry dominant white. Some say one copy of dominant white (I/i+) makes a better buff color, but that two copies (I/I) dilutes buff too much. I'm not into breeding birds with one copy of a gene like that, so I'll attempt to breed out dominant white in my buffs.
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John, how many generations back to the black cross do these chicks go?
Although I tried a buff/black outcross years ago I gave up on it, as I recall, after the first year. I have made the cross again this year and plan to follow thru, knowing it could take several years to get back to pure buff color.
John, were those chicks hatched this season? If not do you have pictures of how they came out? Also how come you got some buff colored chicks. I thought E was dominant over eWh
The chicks in the photo (reply #2) are from one of this season's hatches. The light colored chicks are actually dominant white, although they show some buff as does the black chick. E is dominant, but buff is powerful and leaks thru.
I'm considering culling all the buff split chicks that carry dominant white. Some say one copy of dominant white (I/i+) makes a better buff color, but that two copies (I/I) dilutes buff too much. I'm not into breeding birds with one copy of a gene like that, so I'll attempt to breed out dominant white in my buffs.
Wait, how did (I) get into them? Do all buffs carry (I)?
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Cesar, many strains of buffs carry I, dominant white. I covers black quite well, but only lightens the buff/red shades a little. Yes, it is common in buffs.
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I suspect white egg layers were used by Wayne to create LF wheatens and that would account for the difference in type and that fact that in years past they and the silvers laid the bluest eggs of all the varieties.
Who is Wayne? As for blue eggs, my blacks from FS, lay beautiful blue eggs.
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An excerpt from Ameraucana History in the ABC by Mike Gilbert
I used some diluted white Leghorn blood in my LF lavenders many years ago .
Hi -- What is diluted white leghorn?
Thanks Brownie.
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I suspect white egg layers were used by Wayne to create LF wheatens and that would account for the difference in type and that fact that in years past they and the silvers laid the bluest eggs of all the varieties.
Who is Wayne? As for blue eggs, my blacks from FS, lay beautiful blue eggs.
Wayne Meredith. He created LF wheaten and blue wheaten Ameraucanas.
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I received the below back in an email on 9/24/15. I suspect the color has more to do with the retrovirus than the gene. The individual's comments below seem to confirm that to me.
"Hi Royce,
Hope you don’t mind that I sent this to your work address. I also hope that you are the person that made the post below…if not please ignore this.
I was hunting around the web looking at retroviral info in chickens and came across your post below from April 03, 2015, 05:59:16 AM. I tried to reply on the site but I couldn’t register and I’m not sure if you ever got a reply to your questions. I’m a scientist. I have done some virology and I’ve spent a lot of time working with chickens.
You asked some very good questions and made some accurate interpretations of the paper you read. Well done. These types of viruses can insert their DNA into a genome and behave as promoters (think of a promoter as an engine for a producing a protein. Strong promoter = lots of protein) So by the viral DNA inserting near the SLCO1B3 gene it has caused more of this protein to be produced and this causes the blue egg colour. The ‘O gene’ is SLCO1B3. In the olden days when people didn’t have all the DNA information they merely called a gene by a name and showed how it was linked to a trait. Nowdays we know a bit more but we still don’t know it all!
Retroviruses also have a habit of inserting into genomes at accessible locations - and there are many. Imagine all that DNA twisted and tied around itself in the cell - some lengths on the outside of the bundle and some buried in the middle. The specific sequence can also lend itself to being preferred by retroviruses. So while it is unusual that two retroviruses would independently insert into a similar region it also makes some sense that this area is accessible so is a candidate for insertion by different retroviruses.
Hope I helped. If there is something I didn’t help clear up please drop me an email.
Have a great day.
Scott"
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I would agree with Scott.
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The retrovirus would not produce anything if the O gene were not there to begin with. It takes both.
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Some birds from South America, such as the Araucana, carries a dominant gene for blue egg shells. In addition to calcium carbonate and the other typical minerals, blue egg shells contain oocyanin ( the genetic symbol for blue eggs is O for oocyanin; please note the root “cyan†as well as the lack of + which is used with white eggs i.e. the wild type or O+). Oocyanin is a byproduct from the body’s production of bile.
This blue pigment is not a coating like brown, but is throughout the egg’s shell. Thus, the blue egg is also blue inside (before the inner membranes dry to a papery white) and is more difficult to see into when candling. However, like brown pigment, the amount of oocyanin will also lessen throughout a hen’s laying cycle, and she will lay progressively lighter blue eggs.
https://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/gms1-genetics-of-egg-color/ (https://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/gms1-genetics-of-egg-color/)