Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Harry Shaffer on June 24, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
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This is my second year breeding silver spangled ameraucanas and I am making good progress so far. I had done this with Rumpless tufted Araucanas but gave it up after only producing a trio plus all the lethal genes made it a large mountain to climb. I was inspired by Dr McGraw who made a similar bird without muffs and beards many years ago but they fell extinct or near impossible to find even one now a days. Very fun project for myself.
I have a picture of a cock bird on my face book
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Harry,
Looked at the Silver Spangled AM on your FB page and he is stunning. I hope you continue to work on that color!
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This is my second year breeding silver spangled ameraucanas and I am making good progress so far. I had done this with Rumpless tufted Araucanas but gave it up after only producing a trio plus all the lethal genes made it a large mountain to climb. I was inspired by Dr McGraw who made a similar bird without muffs and beards many years ago but they fell extinct or near impossible to find even one now a days. Very fun project for myself. I have a picture of a cock bird on my face book
Harry, I assume you used Silver Spangled Hamburgs? Do you mind sharing what variety of Ameraucana was used? I'm guessing black or white.
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Mike, Why would I use White or Black it would take a lot more time to produce. I used a silver Ameraucanas over SS Hamburgs and SS Spitzhaubens. The problem with that is those two breeds day old chick down is not the same.
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How about a photo for those of us not on FB?
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https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/12080012_1706954452857361_5741998641971665374_o.jpg
Looks like it went thru
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Looks like very good progress for the 2nd year. Spangled are ER based, like birchen with pattern gene and a few others added.
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I have plenty of chicks but have to wait till they moult out full plumage to make sure they are the right phenotype.
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Mike, Why would I use White or Black it would take a lot more time to produce. I used a silver Ameraucanas over SS Hamburgs and SS Spitzhaubens. The problem with that is those two breeds day old chick down is not the same.
I don't know about Spitzhaubens, but here is a partial genotype of Silver Spangled as in Hamburgs: Autosomal genes: ER/ER, Co/Co, Db/Db, Ml/Ml, pg+/pg+ (lower case pg means it is not present at all), and then the sex linked genes: S, id+ . We can never really tell what white is carrying without test mating, but at least it would have a chance of carrying ER, Co, Db, and Ml. And black could easily be carrying ER and/or Ml. We know that wild type (as in Silver Ameraucana) has none of these, so you would be pulling just one copy of all these from the Hamburg or Spitzhauben side of the first mating. Further, they are all dominant genes, and even e>b is dominant over e+. So you will be dealing with eliminating their recessive counterparts for a substantial period of time. It's a lot easier to get rid of unwanted dominant genes than unwanted recessive genes. So that was my reasoning for using the black or white to start with. But you have a start - good luck with finishing it!
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Mike, I just got white chicks this year. Bought some and some how hatched some out of my lavenders I believe but mine might not have the correct genes. I will try one of the ones I bought next year maybe.
Mike, you know Dr McGraw had a similar bird without muffs and beards but seems no one capitalized on it and it layed a blue egg. I am not sure what year he had them but it was many years ago and his son kept them for a while. I had some but foolishly I got rid of them because the Ameraucanas were accepted in the APA and his birds did not seem to get any respect which they should have.
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...here is a partial genotype of Silver Spangled as in Hamburgs: Autosomal genes: ER/ER, Co/Co, Db/Db, Ml/Ml, pg+/pg+ (lower case pg means it is not present at all), and then the sex linked genes: S, id+...
I think that is a typo from the Seller's site.
They also say under Genetics of patterns... (http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html#t12)
Spangling is obtained with Db (dark brown), Ml (melanotic), Pg (pattern gene) on either the E or eb background.
And I believe "eb" is another typo that should be ER. Then they also have a table, by Reeder, called Chicken Plumage Patterns that has an "X" to mark Pg as needed.
I believe this is from W. C. Carefoot... (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468)...and demonstrated that of the Silver‐spangled Hamburgh to be homozygous ER, co+, Db, Ml and Pg‐.
From Poultry Genetics... (http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/)
Spangled ERER PgPg DbDb MlMl Ml - Melanotic
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I have plenty of chicks but have to wait till they moult out full plumage to make sure they are the right phenotype.
With silver on both sides of the matings I'm surprised the tail is black...more like a golden spangled phenotype. Do you think it is possible he is S/s+?
Keep us posted on the chicks and if you start getting silver tailed males with spangles.
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When I see conflicting information like that from various sources, I really wonder if anybody knows for sure. A lot has been learned since Carefoot, Hutt, and Jeffrey wrote. Also, there is more than one type of spangling, e.g., spangled O.E. Game is not the same as Spangled Hamburgs. Even the spangling in Golden Spangled Hamburgs is different than the spangling in Silver Spangled Hamburgs. as the former has a black tail, while the latter has a spangled tail. I do believe the S.S. Hamburg spangling is based on ER.
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Mike, I just got white chicks this year. Bought some and some how hatched some out of my lavenders I believe but mine might not have the correct genes. I will try one of the ones I bought next year maybe.
Mike, you know Dr McGraw had a similar bird without muffs and beards but seems no one capitalized on it and it layed a blue egg. I am not sure what year he had them but it was many years ago and his son kept them for a while. I had some but foolishly I got rid of them because the Ameraucanas were accepted in the APA and his birds did not seem to get any respect which they should have.
I do remember when Dr. McGraw was advertising those birds in Poultry Press. He was promoting them for an extended period of time, several years. I don't think he had ear tufts on them did he? If that is correct it would explain why they didn't get recognition as Araucanas. And they certainly were not Ameraucanas either.
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I at one time had some of the McGraw birds which came to me from a gentleman in Wisconsin who had procured his original stock from McGraw.
My understanding is that the SS was a result of the use of SS Spitzhauben in the development. The blue egg was from Araucana. My birds laid a very nice blue egg with no green tint. The SS pattern was very good, and there were no black tails.
I had reduced numbers to one breeding trio and lost the rooster to a hawk. After futile attempts to find a replacement rooster, I moved on to other projects.
If anyone knows Dick Dickerson he may be able to shed some additional light on this, as he was planning to visit with the widow of Dr McGraw at some point this spring I believe.
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...If anyone knows Dick Dickerson he may be able to shed some additional light on this, as he was planning to visit with the widow of Dr McGraw at some point this spring I believe.
Dick is an Alliance member too and I can supply contact info on members to other members that request it.
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When I see conflicting information like that from various sources, I really wonder if anybody knows for sure. A lot has been learned since Carefoot, Hutt, and Jeffrey wrote.
that's true Mike, so what's a good book that builds on that past and supplies new information?This thread also occurred on FB to some degree, basically on "cream" wheatens and lots of books were mentioned but most people did not know of their veracity. So if you shed some light that would be grand.
Thanks Sue Paolini
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Carefoot did a lot of test matings, but I don't know if anyone really verified his work. It is tedious, takes multiple generations of birds, raising a lot, and keeping careful records. Hopefully accurate information will be supplied via DNA testing at some point. Then too, in some cases there is probably more than one way to reach a desired result. Look at blacks for example. They could be based on E or they could be based on ER or maybe on something else with adequate melanizers. There is a recessive black which admittedly I don't know much about as I have not run across it. Then there are the modifying genes. Why are some blacks produced with a green sheen, some dull, and some purple? Also, I know that my Brown Red large fowl are genetically different than my bantam Brown Reds, as some of the latter have the penquin look as chicks. John was here the weekend of June 4th and noticed it then. Until we have access to inexpensive DNA testing I think we will just have to use intuition, experience and the unverified opinion of others.
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When I see conflicting information like that from various sources, I really wonder if anybody knows for sure. A lot has been learned since Carefoot, Hutt, and Jeffrey wrote.
that's true Mike, so what's a good book that builds on that past and supplies new information?This thread also occurred on FB to some degree, basically on "cream" wheatens and lots of books were mentioned but most people did not know of their veracity. So if you shed some light that would be grand.
Thanks Sue Paolini
Bantam Chickens, by Jeffrey is the only book on genetics I have and it sits on the shelf. It was a good book for its time, but I prefer the internet. I can find some really old poultry articles/papers along with some of the most up to date information on poultry genetics. I have links to sites that explain the basics (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=28.0) pinned under the Breeding subforum.
I said...
With silver on both sides of the matings I'm surprised the tail is black...more like a golden spangled phenotype. Do you think it is possible he is S/s+?
With enough chicks hatched you should be getting spangled tails soon. It sounds like the black tail indicates the bird isn't ER/ER and that or E/E may be needed for a spangled tail. He is probably carrying e+ from the silver Ameraucana, especially if he is from the original cross. Here is a good article on Speckles, Dots and Spangles (http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/08E02A05.pdf). Near the bottom half of page 3 she talks about spangled tails and ER.
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I believe the black tail in Golden Spangled Hamburgs is caused by the fact they are based on eb and not ER. Similarly, the aced Sebrights are based on ER and have laced tails, while Silver Laced Wyandottes are based on eb and have black tails.
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I believe this is from W. C. Carefoot... (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468)...and demonstrated that of the Silver‐spangled Hamburgh to be homozygous ER, co+, Db, Ml and Pg‐.
The full citation is
2. The genotype of the black-laced blue and the spangled plumage phenotypes of the Andalusian and the Silver-spangled Hamburgh had,respectively, been shown to depend on homozygosity of E, Co, db+, Ml and Pg, and of co+, Db, Ml and Pg together with a black down allele at the E-locus presumed to be E, but are also hypothesized to be ER.
The genes E and ER are the extended black and birchen-like allele at the E-locus whilst Co, Db, Ml and Pg are, respectively, the eumelanin restrictors, Columbian and dark-brown Columbian, the eumelanin extension melanotic and the pattern gene.
The Sebright had been hypothesised to possess the E allele at the E-locus, and to be homozygous Co, Ml and Pg, a combination shown to be responsible for the black-tailed laced phenotype of the Wyandotte.
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I know that my Brown Red large fowl are genetically different than my bantam Brown Reds, as some of the latter have the penguin look as chicks.
Mike you are the sponsor of the LF Brown Red, who was the one for the bantams?
Sue Paolini
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I know that my Brown Red large fowl are genetically different than my bantam Brown Reds, as some of the latter have the penguin look as chicks.
Mike you are the sponsor of the LF Brown Red, who was the one for the bantams?Sue Paolini
No sponsor was required. Development of the brown red bantam is pretty well told in the history article of the new Handbook. Jerry made the strain that was shown at the 1983 qualifying meet, and later I made at least three different strains of the bantams.
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I believe the black tail in Golden Spangled Hamburgs is caused by the fact they are based on eb and not ER.
Well from what I read, Golden Spangling Hamburgs (GSH) are totally incompatible with tail spangling, hence the APA requirement that the GSH have a black main tail section; while the SSH can be completely spangled. It's hard to see from Harry's picture if he boy is completely spangled, but i would hope that is the case. I checked my notes and I have nothing on the GSH tail being eb.
Sue Paolini
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It is not the tail that is eb, the entire bird is based on eb. If you don't believe that is the case, then what is your explanation for the black tail?
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Well from what I read, Golden Spangling Hamburgs (GSH) are totally incompatible with tail spangling, hence the APA requirement that the GSH have a black main tail section; while the SSH can be completely spangled...
Sue Paolini
For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without. My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago. Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams. He and I discussed the differences in tails, in the SOP, and thought the two colors should have the same phenotype. He has since given up on the golden spangled variety.
The link I gave above is worth the read on this subject...
Here is a good article on Speckles, Dots and Spangles (http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/08E02A05.pdf). Near the bottom half of page 3 she talks about spangled tails and ER.
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Here is some discussion on the subject from the so-called experts at Classroom at the Coop. They don't really know either. http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=102748&Searchpage=2&Main=13878&Words=Hamburg&Search=true#Post102748
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Mike, he has a black tail and muffs and beards like a Thuringer and hopefully I can keep them that way but I have a large variation of chick down colors and juvenile coloring. All my males looked like the same with black tails so maybe I will get lucky.
I forgot my password for Classroom at the coop so maybe some day I will remember it if not I will ask my friend who was a moderator there if I feel it is necessary.
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Well from what I read, Golden Spangling Hamburgs (GSH) are totally incompatible with tail spangling, hence the APA requirement that the GSH have a black main tail section; while the SSH can be completely spangled...
Sue Paolini
For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without. My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago. Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams. He and I discussed the differences in tails, in the SOP, and thought the two colors should have the same phenotype. He has since given up on the golden spangled variety.
The link I gave above is worth the read on this subject...
Here is a good article on Speckles, Dots and Spangles (http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/08E02A05.pdf). Near the bottom half of page 3 she talks about spangled tails and ER.
Yes, she confirms spangled tails with ER and black tails with eb, at least on the male birds. Does not talk about the females for some reason. She also confirms that silver or gold has nothing to do with the tail color.
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What do chickens and sausages have to do with one another other than its summertime?
For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without. My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago. Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams.
Ed had spangled Goldens?
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It is not the tail that is eb, the entire bird is based on eb. If you don't believe that is the case, then what is your explanation for the black tail?
I've read it is ER.
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What do chickens and sausages have to do with one another other than its summertime?For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without. My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago. Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams.
Ed had spangled Goldens?
If you mean even the tails were spangled, yes. You can breed silver or golden spangled either way...with black tails or spangled tails by basing them on different E-locus genes. Breeders only use ER for silver and eb for golden Hamburgs, in North American, so the tail colors/patterns agree with the Standard.
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Mike, he has a black tail and muffs and beards like a Thuringer
MY 2014 Bantam Standard finally showed up today. I got the softcover, I like that better, and there on pg. 35 is THURINGER as an inactive but eligible breed. Never heard of a thuringer chicken. I honestly thought you were talking about the sausage. If you want the standard you can email Karen Unrath at bantamClub@gmail.com for the price. She is pretty good about responding.
In the meantime I found several sites, all German, that had shots. Here's just one of them
http://www.ourchicken.com/rassenazzwerg/thuering-zbart3.htm