red leakage

[Stan Alder]

I am growing some silvers this year and have 3 of 5 cockerels with red leakage...should I cull all of these chicks? Pullets included? or just cull the cockerels with red and use the better colored ones...can I use the pullets without fighting the red leakage for generations??? There are some things about this line that I like, and I hate to cull them all, but don't want to introduce something that will continue to plague me for generations...all help is greatly appreciated!

[Mike Gilbert]

Sounds like somebody has been crossing color varieties.    I would start over.   The females will throw it to their male offspring even though they don't show it themselves.   

[Stan Alder]

Dayum! I was afraid you would say that Mike!  They are the result of a black outcross several generations back, not sure what else....so cull the cockerels without leakage too???

[Mike Gilbert]

No, I did not say that.   Males without leakage should  be fine to use.   And if you have some of those, chances are some of the female siblings are too.   But you will have to test mate each of the females individually in order to determine which are the red leakage carriers and which are not.   That means you will need to grow out their male offspring to see whether they are clean or not.  Is it worth it?   I'll leave that up to you.  I would just buy some female breeders from another line, but then I'm getting on in age and you may have more time and patience.  To sum up, you have at least some females that are carriers of Ap, a dominant autosomal trait.    They may be pure (have 2 copies of Ap) or impure (one copy of Ap).   The ones that are pure for Ap will throw males, 100%of them, with red leakage.   The ones that are impure for Ap will throw about half males with red leakage and half that are clean silvers.  Your females probably only carry one copy, as their father would have to show red leakage for them to be pure for it.   To further complicate, it is thought that more than one form of Ap exists, perhaps several.  I believe you are dealing with only one of them, but who really knows?    If more than one, it really messes up the expected results just listed.  All of this assumes you use only clean silver males for breeding.

[John W Blehm]

I am growing some silvers this year and have 3 of 5 cockerels with red leakage...should I cull all of these chicks? Pullets included? or just cull the cockerels with red and use the better colored ones...can I use the pullets without fighting the red leakage for generations??? There are some things about this line that I like, and I hate to cull them all, but don't want to introduce something that will continue to plague me for generations...all help is greatly appreciated!

Stan,

"Cull the cockerels with red" and only breed from the best of each.  Remember the birds without the slits in their webs are not from the recent outcrosses, so if you want to play it safer while still benefiting from some of the outcrosses put the best cockerels with slits over the pullets without slits.
These outcrosses with blacks and wheatens have made some great improvements to the LF silvers.  I don't bother with test mating and any unwanted genes can be bred out over time as always.  The outcrosses bred in better size, type and combs; less shafting on females, softer feathers (fuller muffs), shorter tails on males and hopefully calmer personalities.   
I still have a dozen cockerels growing out and haven't seen red in any.  Do all the cockerels with red have slits in the same web location?  If so just don't breed from the pullets with the same identification.
Please post some photos. 

[Stan Alder]

John, these are birds from another breeder, not the ones I received from you...I have not found any leakage in the ones from you, and am liking what I have kept...they seem to have everything you described in the reasons for making the cross...they are very friendly, seem to have good size, and about half of the pullets have very light or no shafting... ....I am getting it in birds that I was told were 3rd or 4th generation black crosses...they look pretty dark to me. When I ask, I was told they were throwbacks to the black cross....all of them?? They are almost black! She said she does not have it in her birds, but there is no question that these are the chicks she sent me..they were toe punched before they were put in the brooder....I would like to use two or three of these pullets with a cockerel from you, and a cockerel from her over a couple of your pullets...they originated from your line...I think all silvers did??. I do like the darker black they have, and think it would be good compensation breeding to use one on the buff crosses from you... I am hoping to help improve egg color at the same time...I don't mind spending a generation or two cleaning them up...I just want to make sure this isn't something that will haunt me forever....I'll see what I can do about posting a pic, but have messed around with it once and did not have any success...I'll post one on the FB page if I can't get one here...thanks to you both...from one old man to another Mike..lol

[John W Blehm]

In that case, if the ones from the other breeder have some qualities you desire, I would suggest putting the best male(s) from her over the best pullets from me.  Going the other way may give you a better chance of more red down the road.  There may be many black modifying genes...one or more may help cover shafting in the females, but most (and maybe all) should be bred out of silvers.
Mike also created a line of LF silvers and I believe Duane Urch's silvers came from them. 

[Stan Alder]

I might have figured out this picture thing...this is the color of the pullets (from John) that I would like to cross the dark cocks to...

[Stan Alder]

This is one of the cockerels with the leaks....I have two without leakage that are just begining to get silver in the hackels..

[John W Blehm]

This is one of the cockerels with the leaks....I have two without leakage that are just begining to get silver in the hackels..

I don't think I've even seen one with that color/pattern.  As soon as they have enough meat on their bones invite them to dinner.

[Mike Gilbert]

This is one of the cockerels with the leaks....I have two without leakage that are just begining to get silver in the hackels..

I don't think I've even seen one with that color/pattern.  As soon as they have enough meat on their bones invite them to dinner.

Amen!