Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Steve Neumann on November 29, 2016, 10:27:48 PM
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I have another project where I am working with birds on the e^b locus and Columbian restrictors, and I am getting some of these birds that are split for e^b/e+ that are clean silver with Columbian type markings. I'm contemplating keeping some and seeing how much I can clean up the pattern. For those who have tried working toward Columbian before, perhaps you could give me some advice. Is this a fool's errand? If so, I'll just get rid of them as Easter Eggers, but I've always loved Silver Columbian birds.
(https://s15.postimg.org/v9uexbjcb/Nov_29,_2016_4.jpg) (https://postimage.org)
(https://s15.postimg.org/z7homq65n/Nov_29,_2016_5.jpg) (https://postimage.org)
(https://s15.postimg.org/f1e6nuai3/Nov_29,_2016_8.jpg) (https://postimage.org)
(https://s15.postimg.org/jjghfxqjv/Nov_29,_2016_2.jpg) (https://postimage.org)
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Basic silver Columbian is not too complicated, so if that is what appeals to you, give it a shot. There is no disgrace in failure, should that occur, but if you don't try you will always wonder. I don't know of anyone else who has worked on Columbian in Ameraucanas, but there have been Columbian Leghorns along with a good number of other breeds. It sounds like you have a good handle on Mendelian principles, so why not? Good luck!
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Thanks, I'll give it a whirl this year and post pics of my progress if all goes well.
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There was a guy working with them. I saw it on one of the Amraucana FB groups. But it might have been an old post or old info on the post.
I would cross with a light sussex to establish the pattern since they have white skin.
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When I read this tread last week I did a search for "silver columbian" and came across an interesting article from 1980 by Danne Honour called Columbian Leghorns (http://www.theleghornclub.com/TextUSColumbian.htm). I've liked the Vorwerk/Lakenvelder pattern since I first saw it and Danne mentions it in the article as an alternative to columbian. I believe the black hackle offers a more attractive contrast in colors than basic columbian.
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John, you going to try to get the Lakenvelder pattern in Ameraucanas? I think that would be very pretty, I'd buy them.
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John, you going to try to get the Lakenvelder pattern in Ameraucanas? I think that would be very pretty, I'd buy them.
The thought crossed my mind a few times, but that was a far as it got. I avoided other breeds and new varieties for many years to help create and improve those that were already accepted. Now I'm of the opinion to just breed what I like and let those varieties that aren't popular enough to make it on their own good looks to fall by the wayside. As you look back you'll see breeds and varieties have their day of popularity and then become someone's preservation project. As Mike said "if that is what appeals to you, give it a shot."
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John, thanks for the article. Good info, and pretty encouraging.
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I would just like to point out that the idea of making Columbians by crossing a Silver male with a Black female will depend on what genetics the black female carries that is covered up by E extended black and the necessary modifiers. It may work, and it may not. But you won't know unless you give it a shot.
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I would just like to point out that the idea of making Columbians by crossing a Silver male with a Black female will depend on what genetics the black female carries that is covered up by E extended black and the necessary modifiers. It may work, and it may not. But you won't know unless you give it a shot.
Is it possible to build a clean Columbian pattern on e+? I thought all of them were built on e^b or e^Wh. Most people I've talked to say that e^b is easier to get clean markings. I have given my project some thought and am also going to bring in a Coronation Sussex, so I can simultaneously work on Columbian and Coronation. I'll try a few different routes instead of just one, to see which works best.
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Steve, those imported Coronation Sussex were extremely nice. I wish I would have had one to create my lavender line LF but in those days they were not here. I had some that I sold when I was very ill last year to the fellow that bought 99% of my orpington. I used them on my lavender Orpingtons and the improvement was wonderful. They produce very large skull width bred to an Orpington.
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Of those birds, this fellow was the only decent one. I kept him. (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/steveniggemann/DSC_0042_zpsi3lb0xxv.jpg)
I also hatched out 7 Light and Coronation Sussex from Tina Bergonzini, so very nice pattern genetics on Wheaten. (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/steveniggemann/DSC_0050_zpsnez0irhe.jpg)
Looking forward to seeing what I get this fall.
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Thought I'd share an update.
(https://s14.postimg.org/o2xv4g7bx/DSC_0064.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/o2xv4g7bx/)
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Looking promising Steve
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Sadly, my split females weren't laying great early in the season and I had more pressing need for that pen, but I did manage to get a few project Columbians hatched out. Once I am done with more serious breeding, I will hatch out a lot of them in earnest.
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Which generation is this Steve?
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Well I have two lines I have created with different Columbian genetics to combine and compensate for inherent problems that I am encountering. I didn't want to start the project with immature birds to ensure they were sound and in good health and productivity before building a variety around them. Both lines are at F2. One line was created with Blacks, one was created with Silvers. I will try to get some more pictures today of my progress.
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Here are some pics. I was hoping to get more birds to select from, but it was a hot summer, and my hatch rate wasn't what I hoped. Of course the useful birds were a tiny fraction of what hatched overall. I only got 3 birds with pea combs, beard and muffs, slate shanks that are Columbian marked. The male has a hideous tail. But a male with dark shanks is a male with dark shanks. He has some other good qualities, and his color is great. Hopefully bigger progress next year.
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I got different results when I tried for Columbian, using Light Sussex, instead of a pure Ameraucanas.
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Updated picture.
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Thanks for the update Steve. Looks like they are coming along. Is this the F2 group?
Sue Paolini
NePA
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Johnny Parks emailed me recently with some background on his bantam Columbian Ameraucana project that he has been working on for a few years now and some questions. I prefer having questions and answers posted on our forum to get the most input, plus the posts benefit many others that check out the forum so here is my reply.
I've never bred a Columbian variety, but have had it (Co or maybe Db) pop up in some bantam silvers with white breasts and self buffs have both genes.
You may already know this, but here are some things to consider…
Undercolour: (by Dr Okimoto) (http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/)
"Wheaten has a cream feather undercolor. e+ and eb have a gray feather undercolor even in the presence of Co. eWhe+ Coco+ heterozygotes have the gray feather undercolor and birds that I have that are eWheb CoCo (I crossed a New Hamp to a Columbian Wyandotte) also have the gray feather undercolor, but it is lighter and looks more silvery than gray. If you find that your birds are eWheb and they have a white or cream feather undercolor they may have melanotic. Birds with melanotic often have a white feather undercolor, but this may be an interaction with some other genes because I don't think that they all have a white undercolor."
Both the Columbian gene (Co) and Dark Brown (Db) are Columbian type restrictors and it may be hard to tell one from the other in adult birds, but I believe the chick phenotypes may have some clues.
Why do you want them to be eWh? Buff Columbian as in Wyandotte, Brahma, etc are eb Co. It sounds like you are breeding silver Columbians, but other than the silver gene maybe they would be based on eb also. Even so it looks like they could be based on e+, eb or eWh with the under fluff color your determining factor if it matters. To reduce size I always suggest outcrossing with the smallest male possible (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=316.msg2563#msg2563) and a silver Ameraucana male may be my choice. They may not have the best Ameraucana type, but they are silver (S) and I believe e+ has white/silver under fluff.
Brain Reeder said… (http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-expression-of-autosomal-pheomelanin_15.html)
"The most desirable Silver Columbians are those that are homozygous for Aph^I, and have no Mahogany or other red intensifiers, as these will be a clean white silver. Further, when such genes as Dilute (Di) and/or cream (ig) are also present on these Aph^I silver Columbians, as we have discussed in previous articles on obtaining clean white silver plumage, the effect is magnified and we see none of the brassiness that even some good, clean lines show when exposed to sunlight."
Silver (S/S) varieties based on e+ or eb or eWh alleles, with Columbian (Co)Phenotype = Genotype Columbian - e+/e+ Co/Co Mo/Mo Lav/Lav bl/bl Rb+/Rb+ S/S (http://www.edelras.nl/belgians/genetics.htm)[/url]
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Young columbian males that I culled and sold from the project this season. Too tall for my bantam project.
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Hi Johnny
Did they go to people who were interested in following this project? Sue
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Sue,
They were sold at an auction barn. No way to know the interest for them.
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Hi Johnny
Sorry to hear that, but I'm glad you're good with the decision.
Sue/the Commonwealth
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Just wanted to post some update pics.
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Keep up the good work, Steve! Beautiful birds!
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Just thought I'd share a pic of one of my nicer pullets from my February hatch.
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A pic of one of my keeper cockerels.
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nice boy Steve. So this is your 3rd gen ? Keep up the good work.
Sue
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Steve,
I really like the progress you have made with the Columbian. I think I'm liking them. Well done.
Michael
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Here's a few updated photos of my project.
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They are certainly coming along Steve. Are you making any plans for Standard recognition on these? If so, when will you start sharing stock in order to meet those five year requirements?
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Michael, I have decided to share chicks and hatching eggs in 2022. I have no idea about seeking recognition. If enough people fancy them, maybe. I'm not out to push it. I bred the birds for my own personal enjoyment because it's my favorite color of chicken. If it becomes a popular variety, I'd be happy. If not a single person wants them and I'm the only person who keeps this variety, I'd still be happy.
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Steve, I like your attitude. Congrats on doing a fine job. I feel the same way about my LF Brown Reds.
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Great progress, Steve! I've really enjoyed seeing your photos. Beautiful birds! My bantam project is coming along. I'm small scale so progress is slow. However, I am corresponding with a young man in Kentucky who shares the Columbian project interest. He and I plan to exchange birds early spring. We are hopeful these birds will enhance our breeding projects for 2022.
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Johnny, your bird looks more like Light (like Steve's LF) than Columbian due to the lack of saddle striping. Do you happen to know if your birds are based on brown (eb) or wheaten (eWh)? Lights are based on wheaten, and Columbians are based on brown.
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Johnny, I am glad to hear you're still going with the bantams and have found somebody to work on them with you. Keep us posted how it goes.
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Very nice face on one of my pullet growouts.
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Here's a pic of one of my keeper cockerels from this year.
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I'm always excited to see the progress of your birds. They are coming along nicely. Stay encouraged and keep up the good work.
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Looking good Steve
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Here's some pics from growouts from this year. Still a work in progress.
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Steve, I like the wideset legs and small comb on that last cockerel photo. Which areas do you feel still need quite a bit of improvement? Is anyone else working on these now?
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Back length is still too long on many of them. This trait seems almost dominant and is hard to eliminate, and when you do get shorter backed birds, it seems like their tails are shorter too. I did send some chicks to Lindsay Helton. I hope she decides they're worth working with, especially as she has nice Wheatens that could be used to improve them. Lots of people want these, but not very many are interested in working on them seriously. To be honest, I'd rather contain them at my place until they're further along than share them indiscriminately and have others spread around a bunch of long-backed birds that are off type. They still need a lot of work, but they are nice birds and have a lot of very good qualities about them that will make them nice in the long run. I have kept back a couple Silver/Light crosses. I may use one...or not. I just want to keep some extra tools in my tool box. I don't expect this variety to go anywhere, and honestly...with 9 and soon to be 10 approved varieties of large fowl...maybe it shouldn't. This is my favorite color of chicken though. I plan to keep on working on them for my own pleasure.
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Here's a pic of one of my best keeper cockerels for the year.