Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Mike Gilbert on June 24, 2020, 11:08:12 AM
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I received permission from Max Strawn to share his email of this morning, June 24th. Congratulations to Max for finally getting it done with McMurray Hatchery!
On 6/24/2020 8:27 AM, Max Strawn wrote:
Good morning Mike!
I was contacted by Tom Watkins from McMurray Hatchery last winter. He said he had spoken with you about acquiring my line of large fowl Blue Ameraucana. Long story short, he hatched some chicks from the eggs I sent to him. Thank you for the recommendation. It's exciting to know that McMurray Hatchery will be promoting true Ameraucana!
Max
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I hope they offer "standard" Ameraucanas too.
Tom emailed me last year also about obtaining stock. I told him I was long longer accepting orders for chicks, but maybe we could work something out. After a few emails back and forth I didn't hear back from him and for various reasons that worked out best for me.
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I hope they offer "standard" Ameraucanas too.
Tom emailed me last year also about obtaining stock. I told him I was long longer accepting orders for chicks, but maybe we could work something out. After a few emails back and forth I didn't hear back from him and for various reasons that worked out best for me.
Not sure what you mean. Max's Blues are standard sized. Did you mean bantams?
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Standard as in the real thing...bantam and/or large fowl.
Bantams that meet the "standard" are standard chickens.
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John, I'm interested in your opinion on this. Cackle started with your line of self-blue, correct? Obviously it seems you, and Max, and the source for Meyers Ameraucanas?, want the birds to get into more hands by getting hatcheries started with stock. For those looking for real Ameraucana and not EEs. This debate comes up a lot on the Facebook forums and when I tell others that some hatcheries are an option for those looking for the breed, I get a lot of people saying that's not a good option and to only buy them from a breeder. I judge county fair 4-H and FFA poultry and I've seen some of these hatchery Ameraucanas and they've been great quality. I know quality will vary, but it varies if you order chicks from a breeder as well (I've been breeding myself for a few years now.) I think many "breeders" out there just throw birds together and many are breeding what I would consider culls. So in reality, hatchery Ameraucanas are a good option for many. This is my opinion. Just wondering what your thoughts are and how I could help others on these forums.
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John, I'm interested in your opinion on this. Cackle started with your line of self-blue, correct? Obviously it seems you, and Max, and the source for Meyers Ameraucanas?, want the birds to get into more hands by getting hatcheries started with stock. For those looking for real Ameraucana and not EEs. This debate comes up a lot on the Facebook forums and when I tell others that some hatcheries are an option for those looking for the breed, I get a lot of people saying that's not a good option and to only buy them from a breeder. I judge county fair 4-H and FFA poultry and I've seen some of these hatchery Ameraucanas and they've been great quality. I know quality will vary, but it varies if you order chicks from a breeder as well (I've been breeding myself for a few years now.) I think many "breeders" out there just throw birds together and many are breeding what I would consider culls. So in reality, hatchery Ameraucanas are a good option for many. This is my opinion. Just wondering what your thoughts are and how I could help others on these forums.
I know you mean large fowl lavender. I created them in 2005 and Harry Shaffer developed his own line of them, after he heard I was working on them. Most if not all out there would go back to my original line and I know at least one person mixed the two lines/stains.
Jeff Smith, of Cackle Hatchery, is an Alliance member. His LF black and white Ameraucana lines were started from chicks that came from me. My records show I was to send him LF black, buff and lavender chicks, but I didn't have enough buffs to spare and I don't remember if I had lavenders to send. It doesn't matter though, since once someone breeds the results are their lines.
I know there was at least one irate fancier when she heard a big commercial hatchery was now offering "standard" Ameraucanas, but those that have been at this for a while know that can only be a positive thing. We've spent decades trying to get them to quit calling their mongrel birds Ameraucanas and Cackle has been great about it.
Last November Jeff said...
Yes, the other hatcheries are putting a bad reputation out with not having good information out about the differences of easter eggers and Ameraucanas I struggled with [edit] for years to let me change our information...Just hope others see us as a leader when comparing hatchery’s....Your blacks threw some whites years back and I have been breeding the whites to whites and they look pretty good.
For many years I told fanciers to only buy from breeders, if they wanted birds for show. The stock Cackle received from me was the best I had at that time, so the genes were there to produce better future generations. Mine are better today than then and maybe what they are selling have improved also. At this time I personally don't know many breeders are offering anything better.
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I'd also agree that it isn't a bad thing. If the quality isn't good the hatchery will hear about it and sales will go down because they are charging a premium price for the chicks.
I do like to see standard bred Ameraucana at a mainstream hatchery.
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Thank you both so much for your input. I've been reading through all of the past bulletins (I have read through 1994 so far) and I see that it has always been an issue, but I also read praise to McMurray (and others) for sparking passion in the poultry fancy and getting many started. I think the issue is multifaceted and many new fanciers don't realize that. I'm really enjoying reading through the old bulletins. There are a lot of gold nuggets in them.
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Here are some of my posts on BYC (https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/ameraucana-thread-for-posting-pictures-and-discussing-our-birds.260313/page-3019#post-16515096) a few years ago on the subject...
I do business, as a whole seller (of nest boxes), with a few commercial hatcheries and have become friends with owners of a couple. I have promoted buying hybrid egg producing and meat birds from commercial hatcheries for several years, since they have access to the best. But I've always suggested breeders, not commercial hatcheries, are the best sources for "standard" bred poultry.
When I created LF black, white, blue and buff Ameraucanas close to 30 years ago I bought "hatchery" chicks to get some of the genetics I needed to cross with a bantam cock from Jerry Segler. I didn't need show quality birds of other breeds to develop the varieties of Ameraucanas I had planned.
Some of us have battled for many decades with those BIG commercial hatcheries to get them to stop calling Easter Eggers "Araucanas/Ameraucanas", americana, ameracauna, etc. and we have seen progress. I've seen it posted several times that an Ohio hatchery has real or true blue Ameraucanas. Personally I think it is a step in the right direction for Cackle to offer "real" Ameraucanas also. When a commercial hatchery has the "real thing" it helps force them into renaming their "Araucanas/Ameraucanas" Easter Eggers.
...And it is funny how we know top breeders have better Rocks, Orpingtons and Marans than commercial hatcheries, but at least one person has a problem with one hatchery now having Ameraucanas that could rate the same.
Keep in mind that no matter what I say here it will be spun by one. Don't get sucked in.
A debate or to argue your point works for me. One of my sayings is none of us were born with the knowledge we have.
When Jeff, at Cackle, ordered them I assumed he was going to start offering LF black Ameraucanas. Later in an email he said he would be "adding them to our easter egger flock" and I assumed that was all they were doing with them. I just found out a day or so ago they were offering them. I say all that to try to answer the question, but I was hoping they would offer them and understand that once they buy the chicks they can do as they please.
It would be nice if all the commercial hatcheries would offer them. It could only help to promote the breed and as always with any standard breed fanciers will learn to go to top breeders for top stock. Look how many backyarders start out with "hatchery" birds and feed store chicks that are the same. Look how often you see the same posts here asking if their chicken is an Ameraucana. Education is the key and although we won't all agree some of us feel this is yet another step in the right direction.
Some times different life views are going to influence how we see this. I am not a "save the heritage chicken" type of guy. I don't believe some chicken breeds are "blue bloods". If someone prefers Easter Eggers over standard bred chickens that is completely up to them. My only concern is that there is truth in advertising and that all decisions are based on fact.
We may not agree on the road, but I believe we have common ground in the end.
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Ah. I see now who the opposition was in that thread. Makes sense. That's probably why so many on the Facebook forums (not the Alliance) get hypersensitive when someone mentions the fact that yes, some hatcheries have Ameraucanas now.
Thanks for the input.
I've actually recently acquired a couple of young lavenders from Cackle.They were ordered as a Lavender Orpington by a 4-H exhibitor and one cockerel was entered (as an Orpington) at a local county fair market class I judged this summer. I was surprised to hear he came from Cackle, but I signed up as a cull buyer to bring him home with me. He is almost nicer than my own lavender cock I am using for breeding. So I'm hoping to start a second family line here and see what happens.
Obviously they haven't completely ruined them yet.
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Last year I purchased an aging flock which consisted of Strawn rooster over Strawn/Smith hens (daughters from Smith hens 2 years back. I think the roo aged out, I know the girls are on their way. Do I have to go to the hatchery to purchase these birds, or does another breed have quality birds (eggs or chicks) I can acquire? 🐣
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Last year I purchased an aging flock which consisted of Strawn rooster over Strawn/Smith hens (daughters from Smith hens 2 years back. I think the roo aged out, I know the girls are on their way. Do I have to go to the hatchery to purchase these birds, or does another breed have quality birds (eggs or chicks) I can acquire? 🐣
Are you asking about lavenders or blues? Either way, there is a breeders directory on this website that lists the different varieties that participating breeders are offering. As far as I know, Max still has the most advanced flock of blues. You could ask for photos of the breeding flock if you plan to order eggs or chicks.
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Just a quick note to throw my two-cents in the pool. When deciding on whether to go hatchery or breeder, and when making a comparison between the two, you simply have to look at the goals of each. What is the goal of a hatchery? To make money. As much money as possible in a very short period for sales. Anyone who breeds & exhibits probably knows it ain't gonna make ya money but will cost ya plenty.
The simple truth is that Hatcheries can't cull down to what's needed and must keep birds otherwise culled because they have to produce the numbers needed for sale. You just can't do both. And if they did try to keep a separate line for breeding/exhibition they sure wouldn't be selling them for the same price as their production birds.
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Yes, Royce, if we're talking about breeders that regard the SOP and are more concerned about culling for quality than producing chicks to sell, I agree. But I think there are not that many of those kind of breeders floating in a sea of propagators and peddlers out there (that's not including the hatcheries at all.) We tell people to find a breeder. Easier said than done, when many SOP breeders don't sell much, if at all. And even if you find one that does, you can spend hundreds on hatching eggs and still only get a few chicks to hatch. Add that only around 10% are not culls. For some, buying chicks from Cackle can be a good option. Yes, they're more expensive and yes, they are still mostly going to be culls if you're breeding to the SOP. But for those only looking for laying quality, it is still a very viable option. And if you order enough chicks, you may surprisingly get a few that are worthy of a breeding pen. Reasonably, we have to meet people in the middle. We need to help people learn the standard and select breeders no matter where they sourced their birds. Steering them to only "breeders" is misleading, especially when they expect all of those chicks to grow out to be perfect if they get them from a breeder. Hatcheries produce culls. Breeders produce culls. The focus should be on education. Not villianizing the hatcheries. IMO. Give people more opportunity to find birds. Teach them how to selectively breed.
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I haven't been keeping up with McMurray so I don't know when their site was updated, but they are now offering Blue Ameraucana!
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/blue-ameraucana.html
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Mindy, when I said/say "breeder" I was/am referring to the term EXACTLY as it has been used by John and others on here and I would imagine is pretty well understood by most whether it be regarding chickens or any other animal. From what I've seen most people who haven't been living in a cage are well aware of the difference between an actual breeder and those who breed by throwing some birds in a pen to make more layers or a little money to help with the feed bill. And in the thing that I wrote up, years ago to folks who had an interest in chickens, I made that abundantly clear.
And no, reasonably we do not "need" to meet people in the middle. As John said, the concern should be on Truth. We also don't "need" to help people learn the Standard. Only those who have a desire to learn and who have an interest in breeding to it AND/OR exhibiting. While it doesn't take an Einstein to figure out and know how to select a Breeder it's probably prudent to remind folks that buying chickens and getting into Poultry is not unlike anything else. Steering them to only 'breeders" is NOT misleading IF their desire is to get a particular breed for the purpose of that breed, perpetuating that breed, improving that breed, and/or showing that breed.
Your truth claim there is false. Especially when looked at thru your "especially when" because I highly doubt a hatchery if gonna take the time to even ask what a buyer's expectations are nor the typical backyard chicken farmer that breeds his birds to help the feed bill. Steering them to an actual Breeder is much more likely to result in the Buyer's expectations be determined and addressed. I absolutely will not sell any of the four breeds I show unless I talk to the Buyer first. Period. That's eggs, chicks, or otherwise.
And I take offense to your insinuating that I have or am villainizing the hatcheries. I never have. With the possible exception of when a hatchery has been informed that they are NOT selling Ameraucanas but rather Easter Eggers and their "Americanas" are misleading but they continue to do so. Even that would depend on how one defines "villainize". Nor did I see anyone else on here villainize hatcheries. As I CLEARLY said in my post above "When deciding on whether to go hatchery or breeder, and when making a comparison between the two, you simply have to look at the goals of each. " That's the Truth. They are two different entities with two different purposes and the Buyer should buy knowing and accordingly for whichever serves their purpose.