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The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Russ Blair on May 05, 2015, 08:57:04 AM

Title: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on May 05, 2015, 08:57:04 AM
Alright I have more questions to those with a better understanding of genetics than myself. Which I might add I have been studying the basics in links posted above. Now last year I made my first cross with a silver cock over Blue hens and I only kept 2 pullets with the Blue phenotype I was after. Now this year I put a Silver cockerel over them and have just started hatching them. Now I should be getting chicks out of this cross with Black,Blue,Silver and Blue Silver phenotype correct? The first and only chick so far hatch looking like a Blue chick with no chipmunk stripes what so ever. Also out of the F2 chicks I should be keeping the chicks with Silver phenotype correct? Then I would take the F2 with correct phenotype and breed them together correct? Thanks for the help and advise
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on May 11, 2015, 05:41:54 PM
I didn't see this before.   Sounds like you have a handle on it Russ. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on May 12, 2015, 12:18:05 PM
Thanks Mike I thought so just wanted to make sure 😃😃
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on May 17, 2015, 11:11:41 AM
Sweet just pulled 2 Blue Silver chicks out of the incubator with correct phenotype. One looks like a black chick so out of 4 eggs I have 2 keepers http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/Russell_Blair/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps75iaerxp.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Max Strawn on June 03, 2016, 09:20:33 PM
Hey Russ, how's this project coming along?
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on June 07, 2016, 08:29:23 AM
Sorry Max haven't been on much due to settling my Mothers estate, Hatching and Work. I have hatched a hundred or so. Unfortunately I believe one or more of the pullet I used are hiding autosomal red. I am only guessing at this point and have to individually test mate to pure silvers. I came to this conclusion due to red feathers on male progeny in the wings and back. I have gotten a couple without it so I am hopeful that not all the pullets were hiding it. I will also test mate the cockerel I used in hopes of verifying he is not part of the blame. If it was simple it wouldn't be fun lol.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Max Strawn on June 09, 2016, 12:30:27 PM
Are yours bantam or large fowl? I did a search for them and came across this pic from Debbie Mock. There is just something about blues that gets my attention. :)
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: The Malcolms on June 09, 2016, 05:32:16 PM
Those are beautiful!
Are blue silver and silver blue the same thing?  Just wondering what the difference is...
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on June 09, 2016, 05:58:33 PM
Those are beautiful!
Are blue silver and silver blue the same thing?  Just wondering what the difference is...

No, not the same thing.   Silver blue is birchen with one dose of Bl added, so ER based.    Blue silver is silver with one dose of Bl added, so e+ based.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on June 09, 2016, 07:48:04 PM
Those are beautiful!
Are blue silver and silver blue the same thing?  Just wondering what the difference is...

No, not the same thing.   Silver blue is birchen with one dose of Bl added, so ER based.    Blue silver is silver with one dose of Bl added, so e+ based.

Note that the last word in the variety name is basically the main variety with the preceding word(s) describing how it is different from that main or base variety.  There are probably exceptions to this, but that is the way I understand it.
Examples would be wheaten, with blue wheaten and splash wheaten.  Basically all 3 are the wheaten pattern with black changed to blue or splash on the two. 
In the blue silver variety, silver refers to the silver (duckwing) pattern as opposed to the color silver/white.  With silver blue I assume silver means the color silver/white, since it is describing how the blue variety is modified.
A new variety that I've been working on is lavender silver.  It is the silver pattern with black replaced with lavender and salmon breasts, on females, replaced with light pink.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Andrew Johnson on June 09, 2016, 10:02:14 PM
I am sure I am not the only one, but I would love to see some pics on how each of your projects are going.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on July 30, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
Here is a picture of the Blue Silver cockerel I used this year Max. At least I hope, I struggle with posting pictures on this forum. Mine are Large Fowl, I may start some Bantam after I get these straightened out.

http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/Russell_Blair/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsc9ujokzb.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Title: Re: Blue Silver?th
Post by: Russ Blair on July 30, 2016, 08:03:59 PM
Here's the only Blue Silver Pullet I had last year. Which I culled her due to red feathers showing up in the only splash silver chick I hatched this year.

http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/Russell_Blair/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsviwzdtsc.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on July 30, 2016, 08:53:25 PM
Here is a picture of the Blue Silver cockerel I used this year Max. At least I hope, I struggle with posting pictures on this forum. Mine are Large Fowl, I may start some Bantam after I get these straightened out.

http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/Russell_Blair/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsc9ujokzb.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

From what I can see he lacks a blue breast, so would not be for exhibition and depending on what else you have probably not good to breed from.
The Light Chest on Silver Cockerels (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=565.msg4101#msg4101) topic relates to this. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on July 31, 2016, 11:21:52 AM
Thanks for the info John. He was a F2 offspring and the only cockerel that didn't end up with red leakage. I agree his chest should be darker. It actually is a light blue, but should be darker like his tail wing bow. Out of around 70 or so I hatched that year only got 3 with correct phenotype. I hatched a lot more F3 this year so hopefully I will get some better ones. I should of crossed back to pure silver. But I didn't want to lose the improvements the cross brought in. So I bred F2 together and it seems a few of the silver pullets were hiding autosomal red I think. I will post some pictures of this years chicks when I get some more time. I am always looking for feed back from people with more knowledge than myself  ;)
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on December 18, 2016, 05:45:45 PM
I mentioned "silver blue" in a post, above, and since I believe it is basically the same as the birchen variety but with blue in the areas that normally are black, "blue birchen" may be a more appropriate name for it.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 15, 2017, 04:51:52 PM
Hoping to post a picture of a Pullet from last years hatch, keep your fingers crossed
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 15, 2017, 05:04:14 PM
Whew who thank you Suki I couldn't of done it without your step by step instructions lol. This will be the first of many pictures you guys better be ready lol. Oh just an update, I am really impressed with the improvements I saw in last years F-3 hatches. I have a couple Silver pullets that way 6lbs plus from this hatch that are currently under a Blue Silver Cock that sired them. The egg size and color are also a huge improvement as well. I am really excited to see what this years F-4 finish into, I have a three pens of them this year. First pen is of a Blue Silver Cock over 3 of the largest Silver Pullets from my Blue Silver project, every one of them are at the 6lb mark or more. Second pen consists of my best Blue Silver Cockerel over 2 Silver Hens (Blue Silver mating) that are just under 6 lbs. Then finally the third pen has three Blue Silver Pullets (which unfortunately did not get the size improvement of that the Silver Pullets got) with a huge Silver Cockerel (from Blue Silver cro ss) and the biggest pure Silver Cockerel being rotated over them.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on March 15, 2017, 05:24:23 PM
Hoping to post a picture of a Pullet from last years hatch, keep your fingers crossed

Also keep in mind that since the size limit on attached images is 128kB so if you keep them close to that size, without going over, they will be BIGGER when clicked on than images that are reduced too much.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 15, 2017, 05:41:09 PM
Hoping to post a picture of a Pullet from last years hatch, keep your fingers crossed

Good looking bird Russ.   How is the shafting on the back and wings?   Does not look like much from the photo. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 15, 2017, 05:48:25 PM
Very minimal on the Blue Silver Pullets but Silver Pullets still express it unfortunately
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on March 15, 2017, 06:16:36 PM
Very minimal on the Blue Silver Pullets but Silver Pullets still express it unfortunately

The contrast between black/dark gray to white is needed to really determine how bad the shafting is. 
It is the same situation with wheaten vs blue wheaten and black or blue striping in the hackles.  You need to breed from wheatens that show the most contrast between colors to try to eliminate it.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 15, 2017, 08:07:53 PM
 
Actually, I didn't have much trouble seeing the shafting back when I first created the blue silvers.   It's one reason I decided not to stay with them.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 15, 2017, 09:56:02 PM
Here's another Blue Silver Pullet that caught my eye. Not sure if it's possible to put lacing in the breast of the females or not but I like the way this one is looking. So I figure there is only one way to find out and that is to try.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 16, 2017, 12:53:21 PM
Here's the three Blue Silver Pullets. The shafting is very minimal to almost none. I will get pictures of the Silver Pullets tonight to show how different the shafting is.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 16, 2017, 02:18:52 PM
Here's another Blue Silver Pullet that caught my eye. Not sure if it's possible to put lacing in the breast of the females or not but I like the way this one is looking. So I figure there is only one way to find out and that is to try.

The APA standard seems to be silent on the subject of female breast coloring in Silvers.   But here is a quote from Bantam Standard (page 248 of my 2011 edition).   Under color of female silver:
Breast:  Salmon, shading to gray under body, free from shafting.       Then, on page 249, defects are listed.  Quote:  "Reddish cast in female secondaries - lacing or frostiness in female breast feathers.

So it appears the object would be to produce as even a salmon color as possible in the female breast feathers.    That has always been my understanding, but I had to look it up to be sure.


Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 16, 2017, 06:58:42 PM
This is the best looking Silver Pullet (from blue Silver project) that is 1 of 3 in with the Blue Silver Cock. The other two are not this nice but have substantial size, type, and egg improvements compared to my pure silver line. You can see she still has some shafting that is evident.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 16, 2017, 07:09:11 PM
Here is the pen containing Blue Silver Cockerel over the two biggest and only Silver hens (from blue Silver project) I used last year for breeding. The shafting is more pronounced in these hens which are F-2's than the F-3 pullets in the other pen with the F-2 Blue Silver Cock. I think after I hatch enough Blue Silvers I may use these Hens, and the other Silver Pullets to start another silver line. If I can keep the size and type but reduce the shafting I may have a nice by product of my endeavor lol.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 16, 2017, 10:40:32 PM
Quote from: Mike
So it appears the object would be to produce as even a salmon color as possible in the female breast feathers.    That has always been my understanding, but I had to look it up to be sure.

Well that will make my job easier, but now what about males? I invisioned the Males eventually having lacing in the breast. Much like a Blue Wheaten Male is supposed to have, is this obtainable without putting lacing in the females as well? Or is it impossible to do with e+ based birds?
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 17, 2017, 08:07:42 AM
Since Blue Silver is not in the Standards yet, you are free to make them any way you want.  The ABA does recognize Blue Silver Duckwing, however, and for that variety the male breast color is just described as blue.   No mention of lacing.    Page 220 of my 2011 ABA Standard. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver Standard
Post by: Suki on February 24, 2018, 09:44:17 PM
Silver Blue coloration is in the ABA 2014 Standard page 259, paperback.  The head is silvery white for both male and female.  Hackle lustrous dark blue LACED  with silvery white.  front of neck Slaty Blue  and with silvery white.  The saddle is also LACED.   I can send the page to you offline if you are interested.  Lemme know.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on February 25, 2018, 08:38:34 AM
Silver Blue and Blue Silver are two different color patterns. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on February 25, 2018, 01:19:04 PM
Thanks Mike.  Then you're right, there isn't any in the ABA Standard.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on February 25, 2018, 01:39:11 PM
Silver Blue and Blue Silver are two different color patterns.

For more on this read replies 7, 8 & 9 on the 1st page of this topic and #15 on page two.
I believe Blue Birchen would be a more appropriate name than Silver Blue, since it would have the birchen/brown red pattern.
Blue Silver males would have a duckwing...silver/white wing triangle.
Blue Birchen would have a crow wing...no wing triangle.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on February 26, 2018, 10:56:55 AM
There is no Blue Birchen in the ABA or APA Standard, so I guess John you are speaking hypothetically? 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: John W Blehm on February 26, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
There is no Blue Birchen in the ABA or APA Standard, so I guess John you are speaking hypothetically?

Yes, since "blue birchen" would be a birchen but with blue replacing the black areas, just as a blue wheaten is a wheaten with blue replacing the black areas.
Of course I'm not suggesting the APA would actually go along with a variety name I suggest.  ;)
Title: Re: Blue Silver Wheaten Colour Standard
Post by: Suki on March 03, 2018, 03:48:48 PM
The Silver Blue Wheaten colour pattern is inactive in the ABA but if you request a copy of the colour standard from Karen Unrath  at the following address -- enclose a SASE she will send you a copy.




Ms. karen Unrath
PO Box 127
Augusta, NJ 07822-0127



Title: Re: Blue Silver Wheaten Colour Standard
Post by: John W Blehm on March 03, 2018, 07:51:13 PM
The Silver Blue Wheaten colour pattern is inactive in the ABA ...

I don't believe I've ever heard of that one.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 04, 2018, 08:44:47 AM
Silver Wheaten is just wheaten with sex linked silver replacing sex linked gold.  Then if you add in the Bl gene you have Silver blue wheaten.   In these varieties the red portions of the males are replaced with white.   So a silver wheaten male looks like a silver duckwing.   
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on March 04, 2018, 01:08:56 PM
Thanks Mike that surprises me though.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on March 04, 2018, 01:09:49 PM

I don't believe I've ever heard of that one.

That's why it's inactive.  As a member I'm requesting a copy of the colour standard.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 23, 2019, 08:19:33 PM
Just an updated picture of my current cock I will be using for breeding if the hens ever co operate.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 23, 2019, 08:46:31 PM
He's very nice Russ, although I would like to see less tail spread from the side view.  There is always something to work on.  I do like that bull neck on him.  You get a better contrast of the colors than by using lavender, and you can breed two varieties in one pen.  How is the temperament of your Silver & Blue Silver line in general?  I am getting some Silver bantam chicks now, thanks to you and John. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Steve Neumann on March 23, 2019, 08:51:47 PM
Wow, he's nice.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Michelle Muldowney-Stevens on March 23, 2019, 09:57:45 PM
What a pretty color!
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on March 24, 2019, 08:37:02 AM
Just an updated picture of my current cock I will be using for breeding if the hens ever co operate.
He has a good size Russ.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 24, 2019, 10:59:42 AM
He's very nice Russ, although I would like to see less tail spread from the side view.  There is always something to work on.  I do like that bull neck on him.  You get a better contrast of the colors than by using lavender, and you can breed two varieties in one pen.  How is the temperament of your Silver & Blue Silver line in general?  I am getting some Silver bantam chicks now, thanks to you and John.

Mike I have to agree, his tail is too fan like and needs tightened up. Another thing I noticed is he is a little soft in feather. The benefits this cross has brought well exceeds my expectations. I have drastically seen an increase in egg size and color, overall improvement in type and temperament, not too mention an increase in size. The improvements have been so great I didn't keep any of my pure Silver line, and plan to use these to create a better one I believe.  I have hatched close to 50 LF Brown Reds so today I will move them from the barn and bring these guys in. This way I can supplement the light and hopefully get them laying.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Russ Blair on March 24, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
Well I got them moved in today, hopefully the added light will kick start their lay.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Tailfeathers on March 25, 2019, 04:36:54 AM
Looking good Russ.  I hope my Reds look as good after 3yrs. 
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on April 15, 2019, 09:19:43 AM
  As a member I'm requesting a copy of the colour standard.

Forget that.  Despite what the ABA promises they do not supply "inactive standards."  It's a shame as I had a beautiful Thuringer that I was hoping to show but without a standard it would be impossible -- so far I've gone by pictures.  Frankly, I was disappointed in the lack of response by the Bantamclub.
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 15, 2019, 11:37:35 AM
  As a member I'm requesting a copy of the colour standard.

Forget that.  Despite what the ABA promises they do not supply "inactive standards."  It's a shame as I had a beautiful Thuringer that I was hoping to show but without a standard it would be impossible -- so far I've gone by pictures.  Frankly, I was disappointed in the lack of response by the Bantamclub.

Sue, are you sure they even have a standard for Blue Silver?   I'm not aware of any other breed for that is a recognized color variety.  Maybe O.E. Games?
Title: Re: Blue Silver?
Post by: Suki on April 15, 2019, 12:33:42 PM
Sue, are you sure they even have a standard for Blue Silver?   I'm not aware of any other breed for that is a recognized color variety.  Maybe O.E. Games?
Howdy Mike

 Perhaps in this case no.  I may have at the original time of posting confused it with Silver Blue.

Sue