Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Holly Frosch on September 30, 2015, 06:22:24 PM
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Wanted to share some pics as there's not much showing off to do in Iowa this year. :'( These are all from April/May hatch.Thoughts and comments are much appreciated.
We've done some crossing of our brown reds to black and have kept the resulting pullets with 'leakage'. Cockerels all leaked silver - a whole pen of birchens out there (wasn't expecting the hens to be silver based). I'm a little worried about all that the black may be hiding, but we'll be sure to keep the offspring marked and keep the project limited.
#80.Brown Red x Black pullet. I had wanted to sort out an issue we're having with single comb and she looks suspect. Wondering if we should use her anyhow as she's pretty nice. Maybe sort out comb issues in 2017 ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6934_zpsuswlu5kp.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6938_zpsapu5gwyi.jpg)
#78. Brown Red x Black pullet. A lot of these gals showed more color than I had expected.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6910_zpst1pzlb4u.jpg)
#79. Brown Red pullet. Decent lacing without shafting, but looks like she wants to be a bantam. Feisty little thing.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6984_zpspsivieoe.jpg)
These guys still have some filling out to do. Would like to see more even color through the hackles. I think I need to reevaluate the cockerels in the cull pen as some of them are starting to look better than the 'keepers'.
Cockerel 1. Brown Red cockerel. Not liking the coloring on this guy's chest.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6840_zpsmrbcpuyt.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6844_zpsl6izjb2n.jpg)
Cockerel 2. Brown Red cockerel. Like his chest lacing and lack of shafting. Have to see what he grows into.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6845_zpsl6rzvkpl.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_6860_zpsrads5eck.jpg)
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Sounds like you have a handle on what to look for.
I have a brown red cockerel that I plan to cross over a very nice black pullet next year and then breed the offspring together in 2017. The outcrossing should improve size and a few other things.
I had some pretty nice brown reds, in both bantam and LF, several years ago.
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They all look lovely Holly. And so poised in your pictures! Thanks for sharing. :)
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I had some pretty nice brown reds, in both bantam and LF, several years ago.
Yes Mike Gilbert posted them on FB. they were indeed beauties, so it's wonderful that you are going to reinvigorate this variety. I for one look forward to seeing them.
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Hello everyone! Thought I'd post an update. Unfortunately, we lost our best cockerel and will have to go with one who looks to carry single comb. Still has filling out to do:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/4843f0e2-6f29-4f05-bb94-85f6ec11d833_zps0dut4qzs.jpg)
He has just a hint of lacing and not much shafting. Wish his color were more even, though. Hope he's fertile - 2nd backup is not much of a looker. Just a bummer that this guy isn't much of an improvement over last year's cock.
The pullets are coming along. We've just started supplemental lighting so hopefully we start seeing the 'L' part of POL. Here are a couple of the Brown Red x Black crosses:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7231_zpsvekwrood.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7246_zpssyodis6c.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7253_zpsprhpqhjn.jpg)
I'm surprised about how much color some of these gals have, but am a bit concerned about the shade as they're so dark. Mahogany?
I was joking in my initial post about the pullet that wanted to be a bantam. Well ... looks like we do indeed have a couple of bantams out there. We don't want another pen to work with, but goodness they're cute!
We don't have a place for these guys either, but there's something about the birchen-looking fellows from the BRxBlack cross that I like (he is Ss ... SS would be quite striking):
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7271_zpsuokqogys.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/d9b4ff23-b6bd-473f-b64d-64003548a6f9_zpsco4xacsb.jpg)
I'd like to use this guy, but it just seems we'd create too much of a mess. (He looks pretty rough here - winter in the bachelor pen.) Anyhow, I can see how folks get sidetracked ...
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Hello everyone! Thought I'd post an update. Unfortunately, we lost our best cockerel and will have to go with one who looks to carry single comb. Still has filling out to do:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/4843f0e2-6f29-4f05-bb94-85f6ec11d833_zps0dut4qzs.jpg)
He has just a hint of lacing and not much shafting. Wish his color were more even, though. Hope he's fertile - 2nd backup is not much of a looker. Just a bummer that this guy isn't much of an improvement over last year's cock.
The pullets are coming along. We've just started supplemental lighting so hopefully we start seeing the 'L' part of POL. Here are a couple of the Brown Red x Black crosses:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7231_zpsvekwrood.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7246_zpssyodis6c.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7253_zpsprhpqhjn.jpg)
I'm surprised about how much color some of these gals have, but am a bit concerned about the shade as they're so dark. Mahogany?
I was joking in my initial post about the pullet that wanted to be a bantam. Well ... looks like we do indeed have a couple of bantams out there. We don't want another pen to work with, but goodness they're cute!
We don't have a place for these guys either, but there's something about the birchen-looking fellows from the BRxBlack cross that I like (he is Ss ... SS would be quite striking):
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_7271_zpsuokqogys.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/d9b4ff23-b6bd-473f-b64d-64003548a6f9_zpsco4xacsb.jpg)
I'd like to use this guy, but it just seems we'd create too much of a mess. (He looks pretty rough here - winter in the bachelor pen.) Anyhow, I can see how folks get sidetracked ...
Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE. Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.
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Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE. Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.
Thanks, John!
I was leery of using them due to the silver ... but we'd be able to see that. Do we need to worry about loss of lacing? Or just bring that back in later, if needed? They're pretty decent birds, so it'd be great to be able to use one of them.
I feel fairly confident that the F1 fellow above is ER-based, but the sire is likely ER/e+. Should probably test mate ... having only two e+ hens to work with might slow us down a bit.
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Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE. Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.
Thanks, John!
I was leery of using them due to the silver ... but we'd be able to see that. Do we need to worry about loss of lacing? Or just bring that back in later, if needed? They're pretty decent birds, so it'd be great to be able to use one of them.
I feel fairly confident that the F1 fellow above is ER-based, but the sire is likely ER/e+. Should probably test mate ... having only two e+ hens to work with might slow us down a bit.
Since silver (S) is sex linked I believe all the F1 pullets are pure for gold and the cockerels are split (S/s+), showing both with silver being dominant. Mating them should produce some cockerels that are pure for gold (s+/s+) that could be used to increase size. Use the biggest males over females with the best brown red color/pattern.
Without a silver or gold wing triangle on the males I assume they are ER/ER. I don't think e+ would be in play here if you were only crossing blacks and brown reds.
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Since silver (S) is sex linked I believe all the F1 pullets are pure for gold and the cockerels are split (S/s+), showing both with silver being dominant. Mating them should produce some cockerels that are pure for gold (s+/s+) that could be used to increase size. Use the biggest males over females with the best brown red color/pattern.
Without a silver or gold wing triangle on the males I assume they are ER/ER. I don't think e+ would be in play here if you were only crossing blacks and brown reds.
I think I had posted about it a while back, but we've had a few unexpecteds crop in our brown reds:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_3155_zps0njqa4eh.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/2a9405c0-b3d3-4942-91e6-120468af67cd_zpsesp1subu.jpg)
(I'm assuming e+ due to the salmon breast seen on her daughter. A son was indeed duckwing.)
It would be great if there were a shortcut to avoid test mating. I just don't know how confident I am that I can spot ER/e+. Best hunches will be tested first, I guess. ;)
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I think I had posted about it a while back, but we've had a few unexpecteds crop in our brown reds:
I went back and read the old thread (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=114.0)to refresh my memory.
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Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE. Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.
This is a little pic-heavy, but I just wanted to post a bit of an update. We did the F1 x F1 cross as suggested and have had some interesting results:
This guy was slated to be culled, but felt inclined to hang onto him despite his horrendous chest. There's just something about the rest of the package that I like. (He looks to be split for a recessive at the e locus, but I'm not sure how that could be.)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedC3_zpsdspemfbl.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedC3-2_zpstyt365yh.jpg)
No shafting! But Ss+ ... can't have it all, I guess ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BirchenC1_zpsbzbozngx.jpg)
Then this happened ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/LacedC1_zpslcecnmkw.jpg)
This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
And this ... ???
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/WhiteP_zpslhn14ive.jpg)
Still have hopes for a few that are feathering in and some of the females look promising. It was a very informative cross - it's neat to see all that can lurk under black! Mike warned of this, so I cannot say we went in blindly. Lol.
We actually are trying for an accepted variety. ;D Those out of our Brown Reds are much more consistent and are coming along nicely. Can't wait to see how they grow out! Might have to test mate some of them for that recessive white at some point, though. :(
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedC1_zpsuwjpjxqx.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedC4_zpss52nwrrp.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedC2_zpswhhzd7ev.jpg)
Couldn't get very good pics of the girls. They're washed out a bit by the flash, but here are a couple:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedP1_zpsuwkidqdz.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/BrownRedP2_zpsmqq2fnuj.jpg)
John - how is your Brown Red project coming?
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Then this happened ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/LacedC1_zpslcecnmkw.jpg)
This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
John - how is your Brown Red project coming?
From what I see he has REAL lacing and I would think he would be a valuable bird for someone working on LF laced blues.
I'm a year behind you with my LF brown red/black outcross project. I crossed a couple undersized cockerels over a nice black pullet. I believe all the pullets are pure black, but would to catch and study them to know for sure. The cockerels all leak silver/gold. I'm inclined to believe my LF blacks may be more silver based than gold from the silver that I see. One cockerel has more than the leakage expected from an ER/E, and I believe he in ER/ER so that indicates there is still ER floating around in my LF blacks. The good news is due to silver/gold being sex linked I know all the pullets are gold. By breeding these siblings among themselves and hatching many chicks I should, hopefully, maybe get some nice brown reds next year.
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I would be tempted to use that Ss cockerel over the best colored brown red pullets. That kind of lacing without shafting is difficult to achieve. The cross would give you half brown red and half birchen pullets. If you wanted to branch out into birchens you could put this male back over his birchen daughters. That would give you about half SS males. Once birchen is established you would always have a nice outcross by mating the males of one color over the females of the other color to get fresh blood into the male's color/line. Just a thought.
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Then this happened ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/LacedC1_zpslcecnmkw.jpg)
This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
John - how is your Brown Red project coming?
From what I see he has REAL lacing and I would think he would be a valuable bird for someone working on LF laced blues.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_9108_zpshdgakbq1.jpg)
We do have a few blues that are somewhat related that we may try. They're mutts, but maybe still worth a go. Has anyone else gotten lacing out of Brown Red x Black? I'm wondering if something along the lines of Co with Db are responsible for some of the shafting issues seen in our Brown Reds. Perhaps melanotic added from the Black led to this guy. (We did have a duckwing cockerel crop up last year out of our Brown Reds that was well-laced.) Hetero for lacing somewhere, he has rather clean lacing on his chest - turning to spangling lower down and toward his back. Still has lacing a bit past his wings, but loses it toward his tail - reminds me of the same areas mentioned as lacking color in black gold development.
BTW, I believe this is him as a day-old (center):
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/IMG_8005_zpsrxjgsxd1.jpg)
His head was quite light.
The cockerels all leak silver/gold. I'm inclined to believe my LF blacks may be more silver based than gold from the silver that I see. One cockerel has more than the leakage expected from an ER/E, and I believe he in ER/ER so that indicates there is still ER floating around in my LF blacks. The good news is due to silver/gold being sex linked I know all the pullets are gold. By breeding this siblings among themselves and hatching many chicks I should, hopefully, maybe get some nice brown reds next year.
All of the males from our cross to Black had tons of leakage, but none had chest lacing. Many of our females were leaky as well. Those that were jet black I chalked up to being E/e+ as we were working with a split male and I would suppose ER/e+ would be quite leaky (also chick down seemed to indicate E). But perhaps we were working with ER Black as well.
Will be neat to see what comes up for you next year!
I would be tempted to use that Ss cockerel over the best colored brown red pullets. That kind of lacing without shafting is difficult to achieve. The cross would give you half brown red and half birchen pullets. If you wanted to branch out into birchens you could put this male back over his birchen daughters. That would give you about half SS males. Once birchen is established you would always have a nice outcross by mating the males of one color over the females of the other color to get fresh blood into the male's color/line. Just a thought.
Thanks for the input, Mike. I am tempted, too - especially since it appears to be a bust for decent Brown Red males from that cross. Their type is really nice, but chest lacing is way off. I think we'll keep the best for a backup, but wait and see how this male turns out and use him. Would autosomal red be a concern in working toward Birchen? So far he has no leakage in the wing bow ...
We've come up with a few Brown Reds with little to no shafting, but they look to be over-melanized and are not as clean as the Ss fellow. We've lost some ground as far as evenness of color - the lower hackles are too light. Some are not as bad as others, but they aren't nearly as nice as the original birds from you. I hope we are maintaining type okay. The birds seem pretty solid in this regard and I may have taken this for granted had we not started working with Lavenders. Ha!
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To tell the truth, I don't know if Ap (autosomal red) has snuck into the line since my outcross to a black. Originally when I was working on both brown red and birchen, it did not show up. There is only one way to find out, and you have the birds to do the testing. Let us know what you find out, okay?
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Here is my one cockerel that is birchen (ER/ER, S/s+), at the e-locus, from what I can see from his phenotype and is both silver and gold at the s-locus. Putting him over the pure black looking pullets that are pure/homozygous for gold (E/ER, s+/-), due to it being sexlinked, should produce mostly Brown red cockerels and pullets. I could also get some pure birchen (variety) pullets. Using his brothers that are E/ER, S/s+ over the pullets should produce some too, but with reduced odds. Some of these brother cockerels may mature with more size than the one in the photo and they may be the better breeders to increase the size in LF brown reds.
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It's a start. Are you seeing any lacing on the fronts of either gender?
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This guy is the only one of the F1 cross with birchen phenotype. He has a black breast, but I don't notice any lacing. His siblings could carry it. All the pullets are all black and the cockerels only show leakage as you would expect with this cross. I have more cockerels then I need, but plan to grow them out before final culling. That way I'll have a couple with the most size to add to the genetic stew. The birchen guy has a beautiful pea comb and nice type so far.
Not all the started birds in this pen are from the brown red project though. Some are F1 from lavender over silver for my LF "lavender silver" project. All the birds are identified with slits in their webs (toe punch).
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I raised 5 of the brown red/black cross cockerels and weighed them yesterday. 3 were 5.9 pounds each and I'll save them to breed from. Another was 5.5 pounds and the birchen patterned one was 5.1 pounds. Those two went into a reject pen to be sold.
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Those have some good size to them! Well done John!
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Looks like the blacks used were silver based.
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Looks like the blacks used were silver based.
Yes or silver and gold. Check Reply #11
I'm a year behind you with my LF brown red/black outcross project. I crossed a couple undersized cockerels over a nice black pullet. I believe all the pullets are pure black, but would to catch and study them to know for sure. The cockerels all leak silver/gold. I'm inclined to believe my LF blacks may be more silver based than gold from the silver that I see. One cockerel has more than the leakage expected from an ER/E, and I believe he in ER/ER so that indicates there is still ER floating around in my LF blacks. The good news is due to silver/gold being sex linked I know all the pullets are gold. By breeding these siblings among themselves and hatching many chicks I should, hopefully, maybe get some nice brown reds next year.
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I raised 5 of the brown red/black cross cockerels and weighed them yesterday.
much larger than the one I picked up as part of a quintet...but then he's just 3 months old so maybe he'll grow. i don't know when the shafting starts so i can't say if he has any.
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Today was my first hatch of the year. I had crossed a couple LF brown red cockerels over LF black pullets and this year crossed the best of the F1 offspring among themselves, going according to type, size, egg color and egg size. Most of the chicks have some feathers on their shanks. This is not unexpected with an outcross and even if I end up with some nice LF brown reds, feathers/stubs will be something to look out for.
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...Some are F1 from lavender over silver for my LF "lavender silver" project. All the birds are identified with slits in their webs (toe punch).
Here are some of the lavender silver Ameraucana chicks that hatched overnight.
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Are these bantams or large fowl John?
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This is not unexpected with an outcross and even if I end up with some nice LF brown reds, feathers/stubs will be something to look out for.
What outcross? Wasn't this Am to Am?
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These are large fowl (aka LF).
The outcross was from one variety of Ameraucana to another.
Outcrossing - crossing (mating) different strains/lines of a particular breed.
Crossbreeding - "mating two...individuals from (two) totally different breeds".
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I think Sue was wondering why the cross would be more prone to stubs, since both parents are Ameraucana. Or did you mean that recessive traits in general tend to surface when outcrossing?
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The occurrence of stubs is quite common when unrelated strains are crossbred. Not a big deal, as they normally are quite easily bred back out. In all my years of raising brown red large fowl I don't remember having ever spotted one, though I did have a black d.q.'d years ago for stubs, and she did have brown red blood in her. It happens.
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That's interesting - knock on wood I've never found any, either.
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Beth you know you just jinxed yourself right? With that I am staying silent lol
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Lol, totally!
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I did have a black d.q.'d years ago for stubs, and she did have brown red blood in her. It happens.
Very interesting Mike. I can't say I've seen it, but I'll take your word on that one. Thanks for the tip.
Sue
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I did have a black d.q.'d years ago for stubs, and she did have brown red blood in her. It happens.
Very interesting Mike. I can't say I've seen it, but I'll take your word on that one. Thanks for the tip.
Sue
I even culled a bantam Partridge Chantecler newly hatched chick this year when I spotted a clump of fuzz on one leg. This is a very common mutation, and I have no doubt it is where feather legged chickens came from when breeders started to prioritize it in their breeding programs.
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I have two quads of LF outcrosses that I'm using to hopefully produce some nice Ameraucana chicks. At the start of the breeding season I had twice the number of breeders for each of these projects, but culled down to the best of the best with egg size and color being major factors.
The cockerels have foreign color in their hackles, so many folks consider them Easter Eggers. Keep in mind that Ameraucanas were created from Easter Eggers and sometimes you have to create more Easter Eggers from Ameraucanas thru outcrosses like this and then use them to create, recreate or improve varieties of Ameraucanas. ;)
Below are a couple photos of chicks I hatched today.
The first two are from my brown red/black outcross F1 birds. The first chick has typical black (E) phenotype and was sold as a reject. The second, mostly black chick, looks more like it could be brown red or birchen (ER) and it will be raised with the hopes of maturing into one.
The second photo has four chicks from my silver/lavender outcross F1 birds. These are the four phenotypes that hatch. 1st is a over melanized silver, then a lavender, a black and finally the keeper...a lavender silver. The first 3 were sold as rejects/culls because I don't know what genes they may be hiding.
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Here is a little update on my LF brown red breeding. I kept 2 cockerels that have the brown red color/pattern. They aren't great and should be bigger, but they were the best I had and all the pullets matured mostly black. I got a couple medium sized pullets from Mike, last fall, and I'm only using the one that lays the bluest egg with the two cockerels. Her eggs are small/medium, but she is laying about 6 per week and the hatch rate is great.
50% or more of the chicks are hatching with E/E (Extended black) looking phenotype and are sold as rejects. I'm being very critical and saving only the ones with ER/ER (Birchen) (pretty much) solid black phenotype, so those with cream chins and bellies are gone. Last week I kept about 2 or 3 and this week I didn't keep any of the 4 that hatched. Hopefully I'll have some with good color and patterns to show in the fall, even if size isn't improved.
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But I would imagine John that Mike's br's were bantams, so are you saying that even for bantams they are small?
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But I would imagine John that Mike's br's were bantams, so are you saying that even for bantams they are small?
Sue, they are large fowl. I have had the large fowl brown reds longer than anybody. They were bred up originally just from easter eggers, as there was no LF color-cross available. They had good size but lacked in proper, consistent color. Then I crossed in a part-bantam to improve color and lost the good size in the process. Later crossed in a LF black to regain size, and ran into more color problems along with single combs and green eggs. I have a trio I'm pretty happy with right now, plus an extra male bird, but I don't hatch enough in any one year to make rapid progress. Russ got two pair from me last year at Fowl Fest, and John got the two pullets I showed there. Holly F. in Iowa came up with her family quite a few years ago and picked up a start in them at my place. Jim Fegan raised them quite a few years. Had third best LF Ameraucana overall on a cock bird he got from me at one of our national meets. I believe that was the last show at Indianapolis in 2011? Jim sold his. The birds I have now are medium size, very nice temperaments, and lay nice blue eggs, but the eggs are small to medium in size. There is always something else to work on.
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Thanks Mike for the little essay on your BR setup. I didn't know you did LF, so that was a fascinating point in itself.
Sue Paolini
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I also had a line of LF brown reds decades ago that I eventually started breeding. When I created LF blacks I would get birds that leaked brown/red colors and I would sell them as rejects. I also had them show up from my black bantams. A customer told me they were brown red. Since they came out of my blacks it was kind of like building the barn before painting it, since I had been breeding for all the Ameraucana standard traits. Obviously some of my blacks were split for birchen (ER) and carried gold (s+). It took a while to get used to the variety, since for a quite a while I thought they were just bad colored blacks.
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I guess that blacks has some strange outcrosses in them that showed up...so after ditching the variety what brought you back to them?
Sue Paolini
70 degrees and cloudy
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I guess that blacks has some strange outcrosses in them that showed up...so after ditching the variety what brought you back to them?
Sue Paolini
70 degrees and cloudy
I know fanciers like to talk about "pure" birds, but no breed or variety is completely pure/homozygous for every possible gene. On another thread I recently said "It isn't uncommon for more than one E-locus gene to be present in a variety and I've seen it with birchen (ER) showing up for many years in the black variety that should be Extended black (E) and other varieties (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=559.msg6317#msg6317)".
Today I'm quite sure my line of blacks are pure E/E (Extended black) at the E-locus, but even without cross breeding or outcrossing mutations can happen.
I started working on the LF brown reds again a few years ago to try to improve overall size mostly.
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I hatched two chicks today from the LF brown red pullet I'm using, from Mike, with two of my cockerels rotated over her. One chick is pretty much all black as expected and similar to all the others I hatched so far this year, but one is REALLY different.
What do you think?
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I think it is a recessive throwback to a different e allele. Probably eb, but possibly could be e+ with modifiers. That means both parents of this chick are carriers, heterozygous at the e locus. Are we having fun yet? Jim Fegan, Holly F., and myself all experienced this at one time or another. I hadn't had any for the past couple of years and was hoping it was gone from my line, but apparently it is not. I always figured somebody could make some Buff Columbians out of these by exerting the effort, as that is what they sort of look like as adults. But it would take some work. The chick down on this one looks a lot like the Buff Brahma bantam chick down. I raised those for about 20 years. In fact my first ABA starred win (100 or more competing) came on a Buff Brahma pullet that I sent to a show with Bernie Kellogg in about 1981. She was reserve champ bantam of show.
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My first thought was Brown (eb) due to what I thought looked like the "helmet pattern (http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=91532&page=1)". Then I noticed a bit of an eye line and thought maybe wildtype (e+). The back stripes could be attributed to either. I'll study it in hand and try it come up with an educated guess. I'll raise the chick for a while.
This must be what Holly posted about back on the 1st page of this topic. (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=277.msg2994#msg2994)
My cockerels are descended from a male from you also, so at least one of them and this one pullet/hen carry whatever it is. I'm now only using the larger of my two cockerels over her so maybe I won't get more like this chick...maybe I will. She was laying 5 to 6 eggs per week and just decided to take a break.
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After hatching as many LF chicks as I could for 3 months, from one pullet, and raising just the ones with what appeared to be good brown red phenotype I have just a pair that look promising. If all goes well I'll show them at Portage in September. These started getting brown red color/pattern around 2 months of age and I believe if they remain mostly black until 3 months of age they are either not pure ER/ER and/or carrying an unwanted eumelanin enhancing gene(s). I have some that are just starting to show red on the tops of their heads and will sell them locally as meat birds.
These were probably hatched in late February or March.
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I really appreciate this topic since this is my first year breeding LF Brown Reds, that I was lucky to get from Mike last National Meet. All the chicks I have hatched have been all black, some show a little red tint in there head. I was just wondering last night how old they need to be to be able to start actually noticing the brown red colors. I will also add I lost one pullet this past winter Mike but have both Cockerels in a pen with the pullet and have had two hatches with 100% success. Several others were 80% or better so I am very happy. I think I have 20-30 hatched and just set my last batch this past Monday.
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I really appreciate this topic since this is my first year breeding LF Brown Reds, that I was lucky to get from Mike last National Meet. All the chicks I have hatched have been all black, some show a little red tint in there head. I was just wondering last night how old they need to be to be able to start actually noticing the brown red colors. I will also add I lost one pullet this past winter Mike but have both Cockerels in a pen with the pullet and have had two hatches with 100% success. Several others were 80% or better so I am very happy. I think I have 20-30 hatched and just set my last batch this past Monday.
Russ, it takes time for them to color up. You didn't say how old yours are? Give them time - it can be a big mistake to cull too early.
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Yeah my oldest are only two months old, I figured them being multicolored like Silvers it would take awhile. I was mainly thinking of just getting there color, I wasn’t very clear. I was figuring it would be around 6 months to really cull for color if they are anything like the Silver varieties?
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Russ, If they "show a little red tint in there head" as day-old then I would cull them. The red should start showing up by a couple months of age.
Yesterday I sorted thru my growing birds for the first time this year and found six LF brown reds...3 pullets and 3 cockerels. The bigger/older ones were the ones I was noticing before, since they have the full adult color/pattern. The smaller/younger ones are still mostly black. Since my first hatch was February 13th, the oldest ones are under 4 months of age yet. I would guess the younger ones to be 2-3 months old.
The oldest pullet is looking very nice, but the cockerel has way to much red in his breast.
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I thought I remembered that from another discussion, possibly this thread? Unfortunately I wouldn’t be able to tell which ones they were now. I only remember seeing 3-4 they had the slight red tint on top of there head. Thanks John, I will definitely be on the look out these last 3 hatches. Can I ask why the red tint is not desirable if you don’t mind.
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Russ, the red tint on the head in chick down means they will be way over-colored with red, including a lot of shafting. You can cull those at hatch.
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At hatch a brown red chick (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/photos_files/brownredlf.jpg) is blacker than a black.
Day-old chicks that are mostly black with red heads are probably split at the e-locus, like maybe ER/e+, if they look like the ones in the photo below.
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That makes perfect sense, I greatly appreciate your sharing this knowledge.
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At hatch a brown red chick (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/photos_files/brownredlf.jpg) is blacker than a black.
Day-old chicks that are mostly black with red heads are probably split at the e-locus, like maybe ER/e+, if they look like the ones in the photo below.
There was a time in my small flock when that was true - ER split with e+ or eb. But I never saved any of those red tinted chicks for breeding, so that should have eliminated them in just one generation of careful culling. But I still get some, so I think something else is involved besides that particular split.
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, I'll steer them away from the single-combed chicks. Another example - we come up with some pretty impressive-looking silver laced birds.
hi Holly, What are you using for your silver lacing?
Thanks Suki
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Suki - I think I've posted about it before ... the lacing came about when we had the bright idea of crossing to black to improve our Brown Reds. (This, it turns out, creates a pretty big mess. But I can't say I wasn't warned. :D)
Then this happened ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/LacedC1_zpslcecnmkw.jpg)
This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
Mike - You are correct and it involves both. Distance plays a big factor, but there are others ... there are "hot spots" caused by who-knows-what. Just trying to express that map units are not a set physical distance ... you'll see distances between or sizes of genes stated in base pairs or kilobase pairs, for example. (You could define a centimorgan by an average to come up with kbp equivalent.) Recombination event probabilities are found by looking at progeny.
ETA: As an enthusiast, this how I understand things anyhow.
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Suki - I think I've posted about it before ... the lacing came about when we had the bright idea of crossing to black to improve our Brown Reds. (This, it turns out, creates a pretty big mess. But I can't say I wasn't warned. :D)
Then this happened ...
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/LacedC1_zpslcecnmkw.jpg)
This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
That photo supplies an answer I had long wondered about. Because I used to get the occasional way-off colored offspring from certain matings, I knew the LF brown red gene pool was carrying either wild type (e+) or brown (eb), both of which are recessive to birchen (ER), the e-locus gene that brown red is based on. Since your original brown red LF came from Red Stag Acres and you got that result from crossing with black, I feel the mystery e-locus gene is/was brown (eb). Because that is the e-locus that Silver Laced (as in Wyandottes) is based upon. It's what I suspected, since many of the off colors were very close to Buff Columbian, which is also based on eb. Thanks for posting that photo.
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Dragging this over from the egg color thread ...
That photo supplies an answer I had long wondered about. Because I used to get the occasional way-off colored offspring from certain matings, I knew the LF brown red gene pool was carrying either wild type (e+) or brown (eb), both of which are recessive to birchen (ER), the e-locus gene that brown red is based on. Since your orginal brown red LF came from Red Stag Acres and you got that result from crossing with black, I feel the mystery e-locus gene is/was brown (eb). Because that is the e-locus that Silver Laced (as in Wyandottes) is based upon. It's what I suspected, since many of the off colors were very close to Buff Columbian, which is also based on eb. Thanks for posting that photo.
Mike - Thanks for pointing this out. I think you're right. I was leaning toward e+ for that recessive at the E locus, but last year's crop produced a few that were quite Columbian-looking. It's hard for me to pin down with all of the split bases and restrictors.
Here's that male a bit older:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/16601684_1537820396235819_7279331037395517682_o_zpsygz0hrag.jpg)
A photo of him was selected for our county fair's partnership brochure. Really wish it was with an accepted variety of Ameraucana, but such is life. ;D
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/26230274_1970562732961581_5711780219048534929_n_zpsgbuckuj0.jpg)
A daughter:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/20180904_121655_zpstzyb83e6.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/20180904_121825_zpsx6e3f1cf.jpg)
So just autosomal red, not e+ salmon here?
A couple sons:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/24131852_1912892495395272_6893375045956507252_o_zpsoyjrqnhm.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/23736034_1898473910170464_4454496856233461919_o_zpsvdidiwvk.jpg)
Older pic, but we still raise Brown Reds too - honest:
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/hollyfrosch/16664895_1538924142792111_6224447551028334813_o_zpsvdqsz6zz.jpg)
This guy was test mated and I was fairly certain lacked the recessive at E. Had very minimal lacing, though.
It's through such test-mating that we've come up with some weird stuff (as would be expected) ... but our end goal is improvement of an accepted variety.
Interesting about the silver laced BR. I can see making a silver laced Ameraucana but I doubt I would start with BR, but then again it seems your idea was not make a silver laced Ameraucana at all but some new thing. I was thinking of a silver laced Ameraucana because it's such a pretty pattern, and I think self-* is rather dull, but the problem comes in once you get there then what? Is there other people out there interested in joining Projects or are all the project out there just for curiosity?
Suki - We weren't working on anything new ... just trying to work on the Brown Reds. Ours have a recessive at E plus some eumelanin restrictors. So maybe not a bad place to start if you had wanted laced birds. (Most of the cross to black was the expected leaky black, some had quite nice birchen pattern.) I'm actually more of a preservationist at heart and just want to improve on a current variety - Brown Red is my older son's favorite. The lacing popped out and we play with it a bit because it's interesting and my kids like it. I imagine others might be working on something similar, but my time and patience are too limited to care what others are up to (or just too crabby maybe).
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In response to the red-headed chicks - I'm not so sure it has to do with a recessive at E, but there are definitely some unwanted eumelanin restrictors. I think Db is floating around as we have seen juvenile autosomal barring. I have a hunch Co is in there, too.
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My first thought was Brown (eb) due to what I thought looked like the "helmet pattern (http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=91532&page=1)". Then I noticed a bit of an eye line and thought maybe wildtype (e+). The back stripes could be attributed to either. I'll study it in hand and try it come up with an educated guess. I'll raise the chick for a while.
This must be what Holly posted about back on the 1st page of this topic. (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=277.msg2994#msg2994)
My cockerels are descended from a male from you also, so at least one of them and this one pullet/hen carry whatever it is. I'm now only using the larger of my two cockerels over her so maybe I won't get more like this chick...maybe I will. She was laying 5 to 6 eggs per week and just decided to take a break.
John, that chick down color is the same as what I used to get. It is what Buff Columbian chicks look like, or very similar. Jim Fegan got these too.
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The pullet I posted a photo of back in post #46 is now about 6+ old and looking great. I weighed her a couple weeks ago and she was 4.5 pounds and laying a nicely colored blue egg.
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The pullet I posted a photo of back in post #46 is now about 6+ old and looking great. I weighed her a couple weeks ago and she was 4.5 pounds and laying a nicely colored blue egg.
Bring her to Portage? I would like to take a look if you are not going to use her. Did she get her tail picked out at one point?
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The pullet I posted a photo of back in post #46 is now about 6+ old and looking great. I weighed her a couple weeks ago and she was 4.5 pounds and laying a nicely colored blue egg.
Bring her to Portage? I would like to take a look if you are not going to use her. Did she get her tail picked out at one point?
She can stay in WI at your place, if you want her, after the show. She has a nice full tail I believe, but just doesn't hold it up where it should be. I'll show the best cockerel also, but he has too much lacing going down in his breast.
When I searched for photos, on line, of brown red chickens I found one of some of my bantams from years ago on a Pinterest site.