Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Christina King on October 15, 2015, 09:49:19 PM
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I am seeing a yellow tinge in the hackle and sickle feathers of some of my Silver cockerels. Please share your knowledge of this. Is it a gold gene popping through,or lack of inhibiters... still don't understand, there is no other kind of "leakage." It rarely shows up in a photograph. It hasn't mattered if they are penned in the sun or in the shade. I have used three different brands of feed, progressivley over the growing season. I have heard terms of "sun bleaching" or corn in the feed... must be my water.... etc.
Explanation needed. :-[
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Are those feathers mature, or still growing? Look at the base to tell. Sometimes white/silver feathers have a yellowish tinge until they are completely grown out. I suspect it has something to do with the feed - corn, green grass, etc.
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Are they getting a lot of Sun?? I have noticed the ones that get a lot of sun the Silver (white) feathers will get brassy, or a orangish tint to them. I have seen some that were bright white for there whole life turn brassy when they get put in breeding pens (which get a lot more sun) which makes me believe the sunlight is the biggest culprit. I have heard it happens to a lot of white birds. Do you have any pictures by chance??
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Some free range and some don't. Once it is there, it hasn't gone away. Some have been mature, some under a year. I had a 2 year old cock with it, and it stayed after his 18 month adult molt.
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Russ, it rarely shows in the photos. Probably the exposure on the camera. I got a few that show it, but they were phone shots and I don't know if I can get them here, in a size that will upload.
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Russ, sent pics to FB messenger
Not sure if you will be able to see what my eye sees
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or lack of inhibiters...
Something along those lines (gold inhibitors or silver enhancers) would be my guess with my current line of LF silvers. The silver/white areas aren't as silver/white as they should be. Harry ended up with the main cock that I used for a couple years and didn't use him, because of his color. It got worse with age.
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Sometimes white/silver feathers have a yellowish tinge until they are completely grown out. I suspect it has something to do with the feed - corn, green grass, etc.
Just curious, could that be the case with lavenders, as well? I have always had a problem with gold/yellow in my lavenders. I breed back to black every other generation and I've seen improvement, but it's still there. Chicks bought from other breeders but raised here have it, too. The ones kept completely out of the sun are as bad or worse than the ones that are outside. Is it possible I've been trying to breed out what is actually a feed problem? :-\
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Sometimes white/silver feathers have a yellowish tinge until they are completely grown out. I suspect it has something to do with the feed - corn, green grass, etc.
Just curious, could that be the case with lavenders, as well? I have always had a problem with gold/yellow in my lavenders. I breed back to black every other generation and I've seen improvement, but it's still there. Chicks bought from other breeders but raised here have it, too. The ones kept completely out of the sun are as bad or worse than the ones that are outside. Is it possible I've been trying to breed out what is actually a feed problem? :-\
When you breed back to black do you use lavender males over black females and only use the split pullets?
Going the other way and/or using the split cockerels will bring gold into your lavender flock (assuming it isn't already there).
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I did just the opposite. :( But the gold was already there - my early lavender males were basically 2-tone. When I used a black male over lavender hens I got many split males with leakage, which I assumed was coming from the lavender, thought if I culled all the males with leakage and only used males solid black males I'd eliminate the gold (leakage?) in the lavenders eventually. The color has improved over the years, but maybe that had less to do with using splits and more to do with culling the lavenders hard?
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John, Stan and I got the same breeding of chicks from you, correct? He sees no sign of it yet, I see it in the more mature boys. Honestly, could it be iron in the water? Just trying to cover any angle I can think of...
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John, Stan and I got the same breeding of chicks from you, correct? He sees no sign of it yet, I see it in the more mature boys. Honestly, could it be iron in the water? Just trying to cover any angle I can think of...
Pretty much the same, but you didn't want many from the outcrosses as I recall. I sent Stan a 2nd box of them to cover for all the possible culls.
My deep well water has lots of iron and is salty. That is what the birds get. I do believe iron in the water could add some color, I don't think it is enough to be a problem especially since the bantam silvers are silvery white.
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Ok, thanks for the insight. My well is very deep, right through solid granite etc and leaves a rusty stain in the tub. It is what all the flick gets. I looked closer at my white Am/Leghorn cross and she is dingy yellow ish kinda... And has not molted yet. I have culled some good birds for this yellowing problem and it distressed me a lot. I don't want to keep doing that if it's not genetic.
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I have culled some good birds for this yellowing problem and it distressed me a lot. I don't want to keep doing that if it's not genetic.
I am in the exact same place. I have it in my white bantams, in my silver bantams and in my lavender large fowl. The whites were bought as adults last year and did not have it then, now they do. The silvers were bought as chicks and raised here. I've always had a battle with it in my own lavenders and chicks bought from two different breeders have it as well. I have seen a lot of birds from both of those lines and they don't look like mine do, making me really wonder if there is something in my (county) water, my feed, etc. causing it. I hate to think good breeding stock is being butchered because of something I'm doing wrong. :-\
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In reference to whites you need to cull at day old for the proper down color. I have rusty water also but my original white Orps never had any problems till I outcrossed to those Belgium//UK imports and it took me several years to correct the problem thanks to Alan Ammerell loaning me the proper male after my original male died which was his bloodline originally. So you will need to determine the proper down color to cull your chicks. I am not sure about the silvers since I just got them but my cock bird from Christina King never yellowed this year. The lavender chick colors can be tricky but I think if they have yellow bellies they should be culled. I am only keeping the ones with white bellies next year. I had a lavender Orp born pure white and hopefully I will have more if I am lucky.
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or lack of inhibiters...
Something along those lines (gold inhibitors or silver enhancers) would be my guess with my current line of LF silvers. The silver/white areas aren't as silver/white as they should be.
Just my opinion, but I believe sometimes what is referred to as "leakage" isn't When you have a black or lavender bird with silver (white) or gold (red/orange) in their hackles and maybe saddles it is leakage. Extended black (E) isn't covering/masking the silver/gold (S locus) that bird carries. Red in the shoulders of silver males would be another example of leakage.
Silver and gold, though, even when they don't "leak" thru have an affect on the bird's feather color. I don't know if that is what makes feathers on a black bird have a green or purple cast/hue, but it may. On white, blue and lavender birds I believe gold (s+) gives some feathers a yellowish cast, but it isn't true leakage. Diet can play a part here too, but it won't cause leakage (genetic). Even once you have white, lavender, blue and lavender Ameraucanas based on silver (S) without leakage those unknown gold enhancer/silver inhibitor modifying genes may cause a yellowish cast/hue.
From the Dutch bantam book translated to english.
Lavender
In contrast to the blue, the colour lavender had no difference in shade between certain body parts. The aim is to achieve an even shade of silver gray all over the body and it is significantly lighter than blue.
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Harry, you got basically two different genetic mixes from me. Their brothers all turned yellowish here. I am at my wits end...
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Christina King, the one male I still have and he has not turned yellow. I only kept one cockerel and he looks good yet. I have two other very young cockerels but may not keep them since their age is the factor not what they look like.
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Maybe this question has already been covered, but if so I missed it. When those yellowish tinged feathers are molted and the new ones are grown in, are the new feathers also yellowish, or do they improve in color? That has happened with white birds I have raised that are exposed to too much sun during the grow-out stage. If so what you are dealing with is sunburn.
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Maybe this question has already been covered, but if so I missed it. When those yellowish tinged feathers are molted and the new ones are grown in, are the new feathers also yellowish, or do they improve in color? That has happened with white birds I have raised that are exposed to too much sun during the grow-out stage. If so what you are dealing with is sunburn.
My birds don't get much direct sun and some of the LF silvers are more yellowish than what I had a few years ago. I do supplement their feed with shelled corn this time of year, but that isn't something new. I know the sun and feed can contribute to the "ting", but because some have more than others and the fact that all of them pretty my go back to my recent lines I believe the main problem is genetic.
A couple years ago I needed a LF male and Christina sent a very nice cockerel back to me that I sent to her as a day-old chick. Russ also gave me some nice cockerels, but they died. So, the cockerel from Christina was my main LF silver male breeder for the last two years. As he aged he became very yellowish. I sent him to Harry, earlier this year, but because he was so yellow Harry didn't use him. Some bird's feather color changes with age, so he may not have been the cause of the problem we are seeing with cockerels. It may be something that was picked up with one of the recent outcrosses with black and buff. I noticed today that the cockerel of mine with the more yellow is descended from the silver/buff cross, but he has a great comb. Perhaps the most silvery cockerel has the biggest and ugliest comb.
In the end it is just something that I believe we (or I) need to select against and try to breed out. Breed from the best, hatch as many as possible and cull heavily.
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Ok after discussing this with John for a moment I went through my cockerels. I have 1 from a older hatch with slight orangish cast to the white on his back. Now all the rest, including silver bantam cockerel are still bright white. I will definitely cull the one with orangish cast, I have 12-14 to choose from yet. After Harry commented it got me thinking about chick down? Early on I culled most silver chicks with goldish down and only kept ones with nice silvery down. I don't know if that plays any part in it but most of my LF Silver chicks hatch out with the silvery down now after doing this for several years? Like most things when it comes to chickens I will consider it genetic until proven different and cull any that exhibit it in my flock. I have seen some older cocks get brassy, but it always seemed to clean up after they molted? It's always something 😀 that's what keeps it exciting.
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I culled the son of the one I sent back to John, he was still off color after his 18 month molt. I will hope there is one from my three pens I can use. One if Johns still looks good, I only kept three. Two are yellowing, one isn't yet. I will check their toes to find out their background. Will let you know...
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I sorted thru my LF silvers today and I'm very pleased with the progress I've made thru the recent outcrosses I've mentioned. For years I said the LF silvers and wheatens lacked overall Ameraucana type, but now I believe the silvers are there. I kept 4 cockerels weighing between 5.1 and 7.1 pounds each and 6 pullets weighing between 5.1 and 5.9 pounds each. Even up to a few years ago they weren't up to standard size and weight. I tossed 1 cockerel and 1 pullet into the "reject" pen for being underweight. He was also the one with the most yellow in his hackle. I was surprised to see that he and one of the cockerels with the whitest hackle were from the same trio mating.
The 10 keepers will go into 4 breeding coops next year with two trio matings and two pair matings. I'll continue to cross the best of these F3 (I think) generation descended from the outcrosses to black and buff. They brought in the Ameraucana type and so many other needed traits.
My silvers are much softer feathered than in decades past too. The muffs/beards are fuller and the tails aren't too long. The combs are much better and I don't see a trace of white in the earlobes. The shafting isn't worth complaining about. The temperament is also much better than just few years ago...less flighty.
Yes, the color needs improvement so now it is time to paint the barn as they say.
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Looking good, especially the cockerels!