Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: Stan Alder on November 18, 2015, 10:05:49 AM
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Whites are hard to find, so I'm wondering if I could get some advice on the best way to go about building a white flock??...would it be reasonable to start with a white cock over typy black pullets...and are white Ameraucanas dominate white or recessive? Can I have reasonably good whites in the second year by going this route??...thanks.. if you have recommendations on where to get good foundation birds, I would appreciate them too...if you would prefer to private message me, that will work too....stan
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Stan whites are silver base so using black pullet/hen only the young pullets should be used back to the white. If he is brassy I'd use a silver pullet.
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Whites are hard to find, so I'm wondering if I could get some advice on the best way to go about building a white flock??...would it be reasonable to start with a white cock over typy black pullets...and are white Ameraucanas dominate white or recessive? Can I have reasonably good whites in the second year by going this route??...thanks.. if you have recommendations on where to get good foundation birds, I would appreciate them too...if you would prefer to private message me, that will work too....stan
Stan, no need to re-invent the wheel. Bob Rennolet had BV and RV white LF at our October national meet. Since then I have visited him in
South Dakota and seen his flocks. He has very good whites, and he ships baby chicks. To answer your question, they carry the recessive white gene (unless somebody has gone and crossed them to another breed), and recessive whites can be either sex linked silver or sex linked gold (males can be split of course). But you will get better birds using sex linked silvers over an e locus of E (extended black) or ER (birchen), along with two copies of recessive white.
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Thanks for the helpful comments Harry and Mike...gives us an idea of what we need to get started....for certain I need to get back in the genetics links John posted..lol...I'm an old dog and you know how that goes...
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Whites are hard to find, so I'm wondering if I could get some advice on the best way to go about building a white flock??...would it be reasonable to start with a white cock over typy black pullets...and are white Ameraucanas dominate white or recessive? Can I have reasonably good whites in the second year by going this route??...thanks.. if you have recommendations on where to get good foundation birds, I would appreciate them too...if you would prefer to private message me, that will work too....stan
Stan, no need to re-invent the wheel. Bob Rennolet had BV and RV white LF at our October national meet. Since then I have visited him in
South Dakota and seen his flocks. He has very good whites, and he ships baby chicks. To answer your question, they carry the recessive white gene (unless somebody has gone and crossed them to another breed), and recessive whites can be either sex linked silver or sex linked gold (males can be split of course). But you will get better birds using sex linked silvers over an e locus of E (extended black) or ER (birchen), along with two copies of recessive white.
Who would the dam and sire be for the sexlink silver and E or ER parents?
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Whites are hard to find, so I'm wondering if I could get some advice on the best way to go about building a white flock??...would it be reasonable to start with a white cock over typy black pullets...and are white Ameraucanas dominate white or recessive? Can I have reasonably good whites in the second year by going this route??...thanks.. if you have recommendations on where to get good foundation birds, I would appreciate them too...if you would prefer to private message me, that will work too....stan
If a white cock and typy black pullets are available it is good way to go. Assuming the cock is silver (S) all the F1 pullets will appear black, but be silver (as opposed to gold) also since it is sex-linked and they will carry recessive white (c). The following year you would put the white cock over the F1 pullets and should end up with some very nice pure white cockerels and pullets.
(Note this is the same breeding formula that is used to improve lavender using black females.)
Recessive white is the best white, since it covers almost everything. Just as we want them to be silver (S) based to be silvery white, it doesn't hurt if they are also dominant white (I) and splash (Bl) at the same time. These genes also make mostly white birds and may help make the whites with no hint of black.
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[Who would the dam and sire be for the sexlink silver and E or ER parents?]
If you purchase really good whites, that is probably what they are already. If you want to go the longer route, follow John's advice. But there is probably no way to know whether the black male is silver or gold or split unless there is color leakage in the hackle or elsewhere. Another good source would be new member John Foley or his friend Kraig Schaefer. They had some nice birds available at Lebanon. Gina Neta ended up with some and so did Bob Rennolet.
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It's becoming clearer..thanks all...I actually posted this question for someone who asked me about whites...he recently bought a cockerel from Kraig Shaffer and is looking for pullets..I suggested that he breed to black pullets if he could not find whites.. he should be along soon as he told me he sent in a membership form...
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Kraig sent in his membership form and dues starting in 2016. Several others have done the same. :D
There is at least one that paid dues, but I'm waiting on the form to see when they want their membership to start.
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That might be this guy...his name is Evan and he said that he had paid and mailed his form....good to see the numbers growing!
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John Blehm, I sent just a check for 2016 I was not able to get my printer to work. Just Lavender and Black LF, I have others but not interested in selling much of anything right now.
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Great thread. I've been waiting a year for Whites from Bob. Last year was the ban and now the femur, so I'm continuing with my own line of whites because I think they are just beautiful . Last year after some hatching, I hit pure whites-- two pullets and cockerel. Alas the prettier (less smut) pullet was egg bound just when she was hitting a year and gone. I typically, don't breed pullets; but I may have to negotiate. Luckily, the other one is great layer and the new basis of my future white flock so reading all this was quite helpful. I'm still trying to figure out why John got rid of his...oh yeah he does not like white. It seems from what I can tell, no one but Stan and me do either.
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Sue, you could contact Bob again. I'm heading out his way again soon to help set up some more breeding pens. It's only a six hour drive for me.
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Thanks Mike for the tip.
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I love white birds so you don't have to feel so alone Brown Eyes! I even beg John for a chance at his White Sports when he gets them! Rate of lay here has been slow so I am looking forward to things picking up enough to warrant putting the males in with the females.
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Good to hear that there are more...but what are white sports? Thanks Brownie
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Good to hear that there are more...but what are white sports? Thanks Brownie
The term "sport" reference to an unexpected (surprise) color hatching that is different that of its parents/flock.
Example: a black flock producing some white chicks.
a wheaten flock producing an all buff colored chicks etc..
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thank you Cesar. That's how I got my few whites...it's a slow process.
Updated 3/3/16
This site discusses the white sports factor
https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/poultry-genetics-black-and-white/
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Here's a nice article on Dominant white
https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/dominant-white-gene/ (https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/dominant-white-gene/)
And another on Recessive white.
https://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/gms-supplement-1-recessive-white/
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Those are helpful articles, though I did not read quite all of the second one. So I'm not sure if it goes into the fact that birds can be both dominant AND recessive white, since they are altogether different alleles. We have some examples of that in White Chanteclers. Folks breeding white to white can't understand why they sometimes get color appearing. Brother Wilfrid used both White Leghorns (dominant white), and White Rocks and White Wyandottes (recessive white) to make his creation. So if a mating were made whereby both parents were hetero for recessive white, some chicks could appear with red/buff feathers. Likewise, if chicks were produced with only one copy of recessive white and one copy of dominant white, it might allow leakage of some black or gray feathers as well. Hopefully all our Ameraucanas are recessive white only, but if you get some surprises from white to white matings, this might be one explanation.
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Mike, reading that triggered my brain to realize that after 3 hatches so far this season my LF blacks haven't produced any white chicks as they did the last few years. Without test mating and only selection I may have eliminated recessive white in the flock. As you recall it was introduced from the BIG black pullet I picked up in Kentucky a few years back.
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So that's a good thing isn't it John?
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So that's a good thing isn't it John?
Yes. It wasn't a clean recessive white, so it wasn't something to use to develop a new line of whites.
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What's a "clean" recessive?
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What's a "clean" recessive?
By that I meant a recessive white that feathers pure white. I was getting some that didn't have the typical recessive white chick down and had some grayish feathers as they matured.
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112878&page=1
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I bought two white sport pullets from John about a year and a half ago. They are good layers, nice sized birds - they are farm favorites due to their curious nature. If you look really hard you can find one or two small black spots on them - largely invisible unless I would try to show them (no plans on that). I tried attaching a picture of one of them but the file is too big. Maybe John will attach it for me. One day I'll figure out how to do that.....
Can you post this picture of my White Sport from the Blehm ranch? I think it needs to be re-sized and I can't figure out how to do that......
Yes that is a piece of scrambled egg in her mouth...
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Gina, if you want to breed those whites, the Thompson family from Woodville, Wisconsin has some real nice whites, and I'm sure they will be at our June show in Galesville. They should appear on the membership list John sent.
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Thanks Mike! I do have a quad of whites I bought in Lebanon last fall ad I'm hoping to get some nice birds from. But I may contact them anyway for a few as what I have are not perfect. I think I could get a decent start with what I have though.
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That's for the note on the scrambled egg, i was wondering about that. She is pretty Gina.
Brownie.
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The muff/beard, tail and overall type really look good from where I sit and she got all those traits from her black parents. If only she were a more pure white color I think she would do well in the showroom.
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Thank you for the feedback! I too think her type is good overall. She is also nice sized. I have two Ameraucana males - one black and one white. Given she is a 'sport' from black parents - which male do you recommend I breed her to? I am ok with either black or white offspring.....
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Because she isn't a "clean" white, I wouldn't use her to try to make show quality whites unless you have good clean whites that lack type and other traits that she would bring to the table. She could be used in the same way to improve blacks that are lacking type, etc.
But if already good whites and blacks are available, it doesn't seem worth your time to use her except as a the good laying hen that she is.
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Nothing ventured, nothing gained? And we might learn something in the process.
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I will have to think about my options. As far as overall type and size- she may be the strongest female I have. If nothing else offspring would make good layers and/or chicken noodle soup. Thanks for your thoughts!!! It might be interesting to see what happens when crossed with each of the males, as far as color.
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Developing a good line of LF whites should be very easy. Put a "clean" white Ameraucana male over the best black Ameraucana female you can find. Mate the best typed F1 birds together and only keep the white F2 offspring.
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Sounds good John. If you come to Galesville please bring me 2-3 good typey black females. That would be terrific and will be my first foray into color genetics. It will be good for me!!!
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Developing a good line of LF whites should be very easy. Put a "clean" white Ameraucana male over the best black Ameraucana female you can find. Mate the best typed F1 birds together and only keep the white F2 offspring.
Define Clean? Like no ticking?
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Refer to Reply #24...
By that I meant a recessive white that feathers pure white. I was getting some that didn't have the typical recessive white chick down and had some grayish feathers as they matured.
The chick down should look like the photo below, not like the ones in Reply #24.
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Refer to Reply #24...
By that I meant a recessive white that feathers pure white. I was getting some that didn't have the typical recessive white chick down and had some grayish feathers as they matured.
The chick down should look like the photo below, not like the ones in Reply #24.
I got some whites hatching in a couple of days. I got them from a person who inherited a white flock. In person they're werent the best, but it gives me something to hatch this spring. I just need the recessive white gene, though Im hoping its recessive haha..
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If you cross the whites with blacks (that don't carry recessive white) and all the chicks hatch black your whites are recessive white.
If some chicks hatch white, some of the whites carry dominant white. If all hatch white, the white parents are dominant white but could also carry recessive white.
Be sure to use a white male over black females, if possible. The best whites will be silver (S) at the S-locus and since it is sex-linked you'll want to use that to your advantage.