Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Housing, Health & Hatching => Topic started by: Gerald E Hall on June 11, 2016, 11:29:33 PM
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First off, I'd like to thank John for my Handbooks. I can't wait to read mine.
I just got home I work out of town 3 days a week. I came home today and both my cockerels had a eye sealed up. I noticed one a couple weeks ago treated it with vetrecyn and put vetrx around it and on the comb to keep the flies and gnats away. It healed up fine. But when I came home today it was sealed up. He will pry lose his eye. He is my daughters SLW that was reserved champ in May. My best cock died at the last show. My incubator is running non stop.
I brought the birds inside my house, "yeah, I know" to keep the flies and gnats off till it heals. I can't get to the vet for a couple days. Any suggestions would be helpful. I don't know if it's fly strike or gnats causing this. I bought fly spray for the coop.
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I had a similar issue and was recommended Tylan. It's on Amazon for about $65.00 these days. They didn't have it when I needed it so instead i soaked the eye with Epsom salts. i got bunch of pipettes and put the warm solution in her eye for a day or so. The problem of course is someone needs to be around for the Epsom treatment. It did work. BTW, Ingrid was a Swedish Flower Hen FWIW.
Best of luck Gerald, Sue Paolini
Northeast PA
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First off, I'd like to thank John for my Handbooks. I can't wait to read mine.
I just got home I work out of town 3 days a week. I came home today and both my cockerels had a eye sealed up. I noticed one a couple weeks ago treated it with vetrecyn and put vetrx around it and on the comb to keep the flies and gnats away. It healed up fine. But when I came home today it was sealed up. He will pry lose his eye. He is my daughters SLW that was reserved champ in May. My best cock died at the last show. My incubator is running non stop.
I brought the birds inside my house, "yeah, I know" to keep the flies and gnats off till it heals. I can't get to the vet for a couple days. Any suggestions would be helpful. I don't know if it's fly strike or gnats causing this. I bought fly spray for the coop.
I seriously doubt if the cause is flies or gnats. More likely it is a virus or bacterial infection, maybe mycoplasma. You can tell if it is coryza by the smell. If you have a non-valuable bird come down with it, consider taking that bird (alive) to your state veterinary lab for a post mortem, then they can tell you what you are dealing with and how to treat it. Many respiratory ailments have similar symptoms.
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since I brought the birds inside the one eye opened its still hasn't lost it completely.
I made it to the vet today they had a cancellation. They gave me eye drops butril and flucozen the gave the bird a worming shot right in the breast. They wanted to send off for cultures for 200$ I declined. They think it's bacteria or worms. These birds are on lock down all the time screened in runs with climate controlled coop. They seem to be getting better. But they're sleeping in the garage tonight when it cools off 4:30 is just way to early. Lol 5-5:30 I can handle I don't think they stopped crowing since the got up.
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Sounds like Chronic Respiratory Disease (CRD) which is caused by mycoplasma gallisepticus (MG). Looks for a runny nose too. It's basically a sinus infection that backs up into the eyes. It it continues you'll see a hard cheesy substance form in the egg. They'll go blind in that eye when it gets that bad and it's usually a sign by then that they're not gonna pull outta it on their own.
You can treat with antibiotics but I suggest separating it and seeing if it gets better. If not, put it down. And I'd put bleach in the waterers if I were you to prevent the others from catching it. If you do treat with antibiotics, whether the various "cyclines", Duragard, or Tylan, you can pretty well expect to have to treat the bird fairly regularly. Especially during cold, rainy or snowy weather. Just one of the several reasons I cull and only breed healthy birds that never get sick.
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And a warning from a police state, here in North Carolina CRD/MG is one of many reportable diseases (http://www.ncagr.gov/vet/vetdis.htm) that require depopulation, so people here are pretty reluctant to do lab tests. Which likely has the opposite effect of what they are trying to accomplish, but then what can you expect from a state that subsidizes tobacco and outlaws fresh milk...
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And a warning from a police state, here in North Carolina CRD/MG is one of many reportable diseases (http://www.ncagr.gov/vet/vetdis.htm) that require depopulation, so people here are pretty reluctant to do lab tests. Which likely has the opposite effect of what they are trying to accomplish, but then what can you expect from a state that subsidizes tobacco and outlaws fresh milk...
Less government is better government and I'm with you 100%. I've said before if "don't ask...don't tell" was good enough for the government, it is good enough for me. I was quarantined and forced to depopulate once decades ago and won't get them involved again.
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I'm with John there. From what I know, which admittedly isn't much as I'm no Veterinarian, CRD is basically analogous to the common cold in humans that turns into a sinus infection. I put a pullet down once awhile back that had a runny nose & was getting the white cheesy stuff in her eyes with bulging sinuses. Just for the heckuvit I cut her open and her enter sinus cavity and head was basically one giant cheesy mass. That's why I don't mess with them by the time that shows up.
But anyways, really, I don't see why CRD is reportable. My understanding is that MG is carried in wild birds and easily transmitted. I know folks who have put entire flocks down for it and get all bent outta shape over it. So you put a whole flock down, start all over, and have some sparrow bring it in again? Doesn't make sense to me.
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But anyways, really, I don't see why CRD is reportable. My understanding is that MG is carried in wild birds and easily transmitted. I know folks who have put entire flocks down for it and get all bent outta shape over it. So you put a whole flock down, start all over, and have some sparrow bring it in again? Doesn't make sense to me.
That, my friends, is a perfect example of government going overboard with rules and regulations. The intent is good, but the application lacks common sense. I hope no one here is under the false impression that they can get rid of CRD with medications. This disease is passed on to chicks from the mother through the egg, and like Royce says it is carried by wild birds. Affected birds can remain carriers even when they no longer show symptoms. It makes much more sense to breed for resistance, and that is entirely possible. Breeders have to be willing to cull, and I mean ruthlessly if necessary.
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I've been dealing with this for the past three years. The first two, I medicated frequently with Tylan powder. Very expensive and only lasted a month or so before symptoms returned. This year I am culling instead of medicating. For some reason my line of Wheaten/Blue Wheaten are more susceptible than the other varieties. Good thing I hatched a bunch.
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They think it's bacteria or worms.
Hi Gerald, Thanks for the update. when they say worms do they mean Gape worms? Like coccidiya that's a parasite. Bacterial? Well that's a bunch of things like coryza, e.coli, pasturella (common now and they get this one from rodents), Staphylococcus, Enteritis and yes CRD, Mycoplasma. The key for the last one is swollen joints. I hear, since you mention hatching, that this is often transmitted from hen to chick through the egg, so let's hope not.
All the best, Sue
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Ivermectin would take care of worms. It might be a place to start since you have no firm diagnosis. There are a couple of kinds of mycoplasma. One is gallisepticum (CRD), the other is synoviae (infectious synovitis). Lameness and swollen hocks and feet are symptomatic of the latter, but not the former which is much more common.
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Today is Wednesday day 3 of eye drops and medications. The birds have mostly cleared up. For everyone confirming my suspicions that there might be something seriously wrong. I will have a culture taken and tested for CRD. I'm hoping the dry dusty conditions and that they just combined 40 acres of wheat out back, It's just a minor sinus infection. If it turns out to be CRD I will cull my whole flock. There doesn't seem to be any swelling of the joints or sinus cavity. There's no loss of appetite or mucus. I'd really hate to cull all my birds. I keep a small flock because of things like this. My daughter will be devastated but if your going to show and breed quality birds it's the right thing to do.
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NPIP states there is no test at this time to confirm CRD. Do I just wait and see? If it flares up again?
I'm at a loss.
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NPIP states there is no test at this time to confirm CRD. Do I just wait and see? If it flares up again?
I'm at a loss.
Culling the entire flock is pretty drastic. I would breed for resistance instead, keeping in mind there may be substantial culling ahead. You would almost certainly see considerable improvement within just a few years. I believe the vast majority of exhibition flocks would test positive for CRD if there were a test available. Actually, there is, but it is post mortem.
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NPIP states there is no test at this time to confirm CRD. Do I just wait and see? If it flares up again?
I'm at a loss.
I don't know who told you Gerald, but that is not true. Serological testing by agglutination and ELISA methods are commonly used for surveillance & I personally know of many farms that are clean. Here is a testing schedule from PA Dept of Agriculture, which does receive swabs and stains from other states. I know all of this as I am a licensed certified poultry tester for the Commonwealth .
http://www.padls.org/images/PADLSFeeSchedule.pdf (http://www.padls.org/images/PADLSFeeSchedule.pdf)
P.S. Update there is also a natural method to cure this that you may want to investigate before destroying the flock; I've never tried it.
http://www.holisticlivestock.com/kocci_free.htm
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Most strains of M gallisepticum are sensitive to a number of broad-spectrum antibiotics, including tylosin, tetracyclines, and others but not to penicillins or those that act on the cell wall. Tylosin or tetracyclines have been commonly used to reduce egg transmission or as prophylactic treatment to prevent respiratory disease in broilers and turkeys.
In valuable breeding stock, treatment of eggs with antibiotics or heat has been used to eliminate egg transmission to progeny. Medication is not a good long-term control method but has been of value in treating individual infected flocks.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poultry/mycoplasmosis/mycoplasma_gallisepticum_infection_in_poultry.html
Any thoughts on this?? If you could eliminate the egg transmission to the progeny and hatch as many as possible, then cull the breeders, you could possibly eliminate it from your line. Of course it's a gamble, but could be beneficial. I'm not sure I would try it unless my flock were confined and not allowed to free range...
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Most strains of M gallisepticum are sensitive to a number of broad-spectrum antibiotics, including tylosin, tetracyclines, and others but not to penicillins or those that act on the cell wall. Tylosin or tetracyclines have been commonly used to reduce egg transmission or as prophylactic treatment to prevent respiratory disease in broilers and turkeys.
In valuable breeding stock, treatment of eggs with antibiotics or heat has been used to eliminate egg transmission to progeny. Medication is not a good long-term control method but has been of value in treating individual infected flocks.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poultry/mycoplasmosis/mycoplasma_gallisepticum_infection_in_poultry.html
Any thoughts on this?? If you could eliminate the egg transmission to the progeny and hatch as many as possible, then cull the breeders, you could possibly eliminate it from your line. Of course it's a gamble, but could be beneficial. I'm not sure I would try it unless my flock were confined and not allowed to free range...
Whitmore Farms has a way to eliminate the transmission of m.g. in hatching eggs via treating them with antibiotics. I tried to find the article I read a long time ago on their website, but without success. You might contact William Morrow, farm manager, for his technique. Here is a link: http://www.whitmorefarm.com/content/5063
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This sounds promising. Sadly, in some states it wouldn't be possible, since there would be no way to know if it worked without testing the birds and if any test positive, it's reported to the state and you are at their mercy. North Carolina has no clear policy on euthanasia/depopulation, it is left to the investigator's discretion whether you have the option to quarantine and retest until the flock tests clean or put them all down. And without testing, you couldn't ethically show or sell birds or even hatching eggs for fear of putting someone else's flock in jeopardy. Ironic that we have the Atlantic ocean to the east and the state capitol to the west, putting us both literally and figuratively between the devil and the deep blue sea...
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I don't know if Gerald's Bird problem was worms, but over the past few decades I've experienced what Royce talked about and agree with Mike that MG/CRD is much more common than the average fancier knows. Closed "Primary" and "Multiplying" breeding flocks used to produce hybrid meat and egg birds may be clean in North America, but I don't think you would have to look much further to find it.
Salsbury Manual of Poultry Diseases, 7th Edition, page 42...
MG normally presents itself as a chronic respiratory infection. Mycoplasma gallisepticum can be present in a flock and cause few problems until the birds are exposed to some additional stress. Conditions which may trigger an outbreak include infectious bronchitis (IB), Newcastle disease (ND), (field exposure or vaccination), E. coli, fowl cholera, infectious coryza, a change in weather, management, or nutrition.
I've talked several times about how a couple days of cold rainy weather would bring on sickness and my reasoning for covering all my outside runs with roofing to keep the birds dry. Chickens are not waterfowl.
I can email a scan of the pages in my book to any member that wants more info, especially if you plan to do your own necropsy. You may do as well as many suburbanite vets when it comes to chickens.
My personal advice is to treasure and breed from any breed quality birds that don't show symptoms.
Dispose of sickly birds that can be replaced.
Nurse the almost irreplaceable birds that show symptoms with Tylan (http://cutlersupply.com/zen_new51/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_75&products_id=420). Breed from them when they recover.
Keep the government out of it.
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I had a lengthy phone conversation yesterday with Will Morrow from Whitmore Farms about the removal of MG and MS from his flocks. He was very helpful and explained why he feels these diseases are so common in backyard hobby and exhibition poultry.
First, some effects of these diseases include slightly stunted growth if the bird shows signs of infection at an early age, and a decrease in egg production by up to 20%.
According to Will, the vast majority of MG and MS infections are spread by human contact. The bacteria can be carried by air molecules or direct contact and stick to your clothes, skin, and hair. It can survive away from a host for 3 to 4 days. You can imagine how easily it could be transmitted to your birds by a judge who handles hundreds of birds at a show, then transmitted to the rest of your flock when you return home.
The odds of your flock being infected by wild birds is very, very slim. Will has free ranged his flock for 10+ years and continues to be MG and MS free.
If you show, it is recommended not to bring your very best birds. Everything you bring should be sold or given to youth or 4H groups at the end of the show. This way, you are not bringing any diseases home with you. When you return home, disinfect your poultry carriers and equipment if they are stored close to your birds.
I’ve attached a pic sent by Will that explains the process of removing the bacteria from hatching eggs.
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Tylosin that is mentioned in your attachment is what the product Tylan, mentioned above, is. It come in different forms, like Tylan® Soluble (Tylosin tartrate) (http://www.elanco.us/products-services/poultry/water-soluble-crd-control.aspx) and many of us use Tylan® Injection (Tylosin) (http://www.elanco.us/products-services/beef/versatile-cattle-antibiotic.aspx) on our mature chickens.
Tylan® (tylosin premix) (http://www.elanco.us/products-services/poultry/tylan-premix.aspx)
Tylan is a therapeutic management tool that helps poultry producers control chronic respiratory disease (CRD) associated with Mycoplasma gallisepticum in broilers and replacement chickens.
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Tylan in powder form can be hard to dissolve in water. Best to dissolve it in a glass with a small amount of water first. I have been using a generic version of Tylan the last few years. Seems to work just as well. You can purchase it here...
https://www.twincitypoultrysupplies.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=449&zenid=0301b19b82e2430678431038819042c4
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Max, this is awesome! Please tell Will thanks (I don't know if he reads the forum). Did he by any chance mention the name of the book? I'd love to know what other gems are in it!
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He did not. I'll email him and ask.
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I grew a lot of Florida Cranberry ( aka. Roselle Hibiscus, Rosella, Florida Cranberry, Australian Jam Fruit, Jamaican Sorrel) this year and was looking for recipes and more info in the plant use. It has some proven medicinal qualities.
I ran across this paper - kind of blew me away. Scroll all the way to the bottom and look at Medical
https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/roselle.html
;) or just read this quote from article.
Other Uses
The seeds are considered excellent feed for chickens. The residue after oil extraction is valued as cattle feed when available in quantity. <----- Note, my chix have not developed a taste for them in fresh form, will be drying some soon to try
Medicinal Uses: In India, Africa and Mexico, all above-ground parts of the roselle plant are valued in native medicine. Infusions of the leaves or calyces are regarded as diuretic, cholerectic, febrifugal and hypotensive, decreasing the viscosity of the blood and stimulating intestinal peristalsis. Pharmacognosists in Senegal recommend roselle extract for lowering blood pressure. In 1962, Sharaf confirmed the hypotensive activity of the calyces and found them antispasmodic, anthelmintic and antibacterial as well. In 1964, the aqueous extract was found effective against Ascaris gallinarum in poultry. Three years later, Sharaf and co-workers showed that both the aqueous extract and the coloring matter of the calyces are lethal to Mycobacterium tuberculosis. In experiments with domestic fowl, roselle extract decreased the rate of absorption of alcohol and so lessened its effect on the system. In Guatemala, roselle "ade" is a favorite remedy for the aftereffects of drunkenness.
In East Africa, the calyx infusion, called "Sudan tea", is taken to relieve coughs. Roselle juice, with salt, pepper, asafetida and molasses, is taken as a remedy for biliousness.
The heated leaves are applied to cracks in the feet and on boils and ulcers to speed maturation. A lotion made from leaves is used on sores and wounds. The seeds are said to be diuretic and tonic in action and the brownish-yellow seed oil is claimed to heal sores on camels. In India, a decoction of the seeds is given to relieve dysuria, strangury and mild cases of dyspepsia and debility. Brazilians attribute stomachic, emollient and resolutive properties to the bitter roots.
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https://books.google.com/books?id=PJ7XFY86HOQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Scroll down to page 9. It is the same, word for word, as the pic from Will...
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https://books.google.com/books?id=PJ7XFY86HOQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Scroll down to page 9. It is the same, word for word, as the pic from Will...
Good reading. The big surprise for me was that MG is only passed on to about 1 in 50 eggs/chicks from infected hens. When I hear that a disease is transmitted or passed thru the egg I had always assumed all eggs/chicks would receive it.
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I received a complimentary copy of Chickens magazine today as a courtesy for furnishing part of an article about best cold weather breeds (Chantecler, sorry). Anyway, there is an article in the magazine prepared by the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine about the Mycoplasma infections. It is worth a read, and it confirms that M.G. results in very low mortality, though it can certainly be bothersome what with recurring symptoms. Low mortality diseases can be worked with to breed in resistance in a line of birds through strict culling. (Laryngotracheitis, on the other hand, is not one of these and should be vaccinated for if it has been prevalent in a flock or even in the area.) M.G. is easily spread unless strict biosecurity is practiced, and anyone attending shows may very well bring it home on their shoes or clothes. Wild birds can carry it and spread it. M.G. is even spread on dust particles in the air. Besides these horizontal means of spreading, it can also be spread vertically from hen to chick through the egg. Bottom line, if I am going to attend shows or bring the occasional breeder bird home, I am going to have to choose breeding for resistance. I believe it is the way to go. I believe M.G. was the disease Fred Jeffrey had in mind when he said the poultryman's best friend was the axe. Let the stoning begin.
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I don't know if I've posted this before in the Forum or not so if I have forgive me and chalk it up to a rapidly deteriorating memory.
I believe I probably brought MG into my flock when I got into Barnevelders. The first couple of years I had them they were constantly sick with runny noses, bubbly eyes, and then the sinus infection would get so bad it caused cottage cheese like kernels to form in their eyes. Not knowing any better I medicated them. Started with various tetracyclines, then heard about Tylan, then Denagard. After 2-3yrs of treating birds and seeing it spread to my other breeds, including Ameraucanas, I read an article in the Poultry Press about culling sick birds and breeding for resistance. So I culled down to one cockerel and two pullets.
I don't recall how many but I know I had some sick birds the next year but fewer and hardly any the year after that. After that it was down to almost zero. Then none for a few years. I remember having one Ameraucana pullet 2yrs ago that got MG bad enough that I put her down because it got bad enough to form a cottage cheese kernel in her eye. I also saw another with just a little bit of a bubbly eye but it never got worse. Nothing at all last year or this year. And I just remembered another bird from 2yrs ago. Don't remember which breed it was now. For some reason I'm thinking it was a Welsummer but not sure because I've never seen any of my Welsummer get MG. Can't remember for the life of me what it was now. Maybe a Buckeye. Anyways, I remember it got a big lump under one of the eyes so I decided to open it up with a razor blade to see if I could drain it. Long story short that entire birds head was one big cheeseball inside. Both sinus cavities were plugged and even the area between the eyes and top of the head. Ironically, I had just got it's whole head cleaned out when it gave a big squawk, got excited, and keeled over dead. I think it must've had a heart attack on the operating table just as I was finishing up. That's when I became convinced that it's not worth trying to save a bird that gets that bad or even let 'em get to that point.
Only other thing I'll pass on is that I do use bleach in the waterers. I think that helps from it getting passed around.
So, all that said, all in all I'm with Mike when it comes to MG except I wouldn't recommend treating a bird unless it was just so absolutely good for some reason that I just had to breed it. If you get a bird that shows a bad runny nose and gets to the point where their eyes start gluing shut because of the yucky eyes, I'd recommend putting it down.
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Eliminating MG and MS from a large scale operation is probably worth while. But for a backyard hobbyist who likes to show I think it would be a wasted effort. It's just one of those things we will always have to deal with. Hatch a bunch and cull at the first sign of sickness...
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I guess if anyone did achieve an M.G. free flock they could always get into a vaccination program for it. Victor Hakes and Twin City Poultry Supplies has the vaccine at about $100 per bottle. Most vaccines can not be re-used once the bottle is opened, so it would be quite an expensive proposition for anyone with many hatches each year like many of us.
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Totally agree with you, Max. There was a gal in my neck of the woods, novice just getting into chickens and not even showing, her put her entire flock down because she had a bird tested and it came back with MG. So now she's gonna start all over and who knows? In another year or so she could have some wild bird bring it right back in. Seems pretty silly to me.
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I have had CRD in my flock in my flock for the past few years. After breeding and culling and no medication I can safely say I have a resistant flock. Resistance is possible, though hard for the backyard hobbiest who can only hatch a few chicks each year. I kept birds alive at first only until both eyes sealed shut... At that point I culled them. Last year I was safely able to cull a few who had sealed eyes and the rest were fine. This year the only birds I have culled was one buff male.. The rest have been fine. I am hopeful next year I won't have anything to cull as far as CRD is concerned. While it took me out of showing for a few years it is so satisfying to know my birds are healthier now and stranger than they were a few years ago. I have changed my animal rearing views and now asap I kick my young birds butts outside to live. 24/7. I only just now brought in my show stock for this year and they look AWESOME. So bright and healthy! Don't give up faith! Breeding for resistance is possible.
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Kudos to you Jensen, for persevering through adversity. I know it is hard, but it is necessary for anyone who takes birds to shows and brings them home again. Even at home they can fall prey to CRD by transmission from wild birds, or from the shoes or clothing of visitors. A lot of young folks would have thrown in the towel, so congratulations to you. BUT, be on the watch for Laryngo and/or Bronchitis. They are killers, and should be vaccinated for at the very first sign of an outbreak. I try to keep the vaccine on hand just in case.
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Thanks for the tip Mike. I will research the symptoms and be on watch.
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I would agree with Jensen, but the problem is if you are alone, you are forced into a "closed" flock. I cull with a "sneeze". I don't wait for closed eyes. One sneeze they meet the hatchet. I have some head shakes now, but I think just about 4 sneezers left. The heavy rains and humidity haven't helped there, but I do add that yellow vitamin stuff into the water and give green grass for dessert...still out of 100 bought and bred, I have 15 good, that's I guess a 15% healthy rate -- some are healthy just not the best for looks. I am hoping next year will be a major turnaround and I can start breeding for purty....step by step, slowly I turn...
https://youtu.be/_yJBhzMWJCc?t=1m