Ameraucana Forum
The Official Ameraucana Forum => Breeding => Topic started by: John W Blehm on June 20, 2016, 03:42:30 PM
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This subject is covered in my Ameraucana Chickens book (https://www.cacklehatchery.com/product/ameraucana-chickens/).
John W Blehm
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So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately. When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing. But all of us were in that place at one time or another. The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.
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ER is called birchen and sometimes crow wing. Birchen is also the name of a color/pattern variety of chickens that is based on the E-locus birchen (ER) gene. You can tell a birchen Ameraucana male from a silver Ameraucana male by the area known as the wing triangle (http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=135.msg1266#msg1266).
When you add extra genes like, one copy of blue (Bl/bl+), pattern (Pg), melanotic (Ml), maybe Columbian (Co), plus some unknown eumelanin extenders (to darken feathers in more areas) you get laced blue or the variety the APA/ABA refers to as "blue". The one blue gene modifies black to blue/gray and the pattern gene with melanotic and Columbian added the lacing as seen in Andalusian blue. Some laced blue chickens are based on E, but Dr. Ron Okimoto said...
(quote from Classroom @ The Coop: Blue & E/ or ER/, posted May 02, 2006) (http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/)
Some of us speculated that Andalusian blue used ER instead of E because ER would be more amenable to secondary pattern genes like Pg. I recently tested some Andalusian Blues from McMurray. I had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous ER/ER and the third was heterozygous E/ER. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably ER.
I like this thread, John. :)
Questions:
Is your opinion that the difference between a properly laced blue and a silver laced would be the eumelanin enhancers (and Bl, certainly)? Or perhaps the blues are lacking a restrictor such as Db?
What do you think of the role of Co in shafting? I've come up with several individuals that are laced to varying degrees out of our brown reds (and crosses to black). F2s from crosses to black range from no shafting to seeing that center "explode" into lacing.
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Holly, if you mean Silver Laced as in Wyandottes, the Silver Laced pattern is based on eb (brown) rather than E or Er. You can find the combination of genes that make up silver laced and Andalusian blue on the Sellers website. http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html#t16
Co is an incompletely dominant gene, and as such would probably do more to the brown red pattern than just create shafting in my opinion. Perhaps one copy rather than two might be a potential cause of shafting. Shafting has not been really studied all that much as there is little commercial value in doing so.
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Thank you, Mike!
I had intended laced as in Sebright, based on ER. I see via the link you provided that the difference is, indeed, Db. They also have the base of Andalusian blue indicated as E. There seems to be lack of consensus on E vs. ER, perhaps due to the c. 1990 Carefoot paper. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468?journalCode=cbps20 (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468?journalCode=cbps20)
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Note the clean lines, on the arrow, on the head of the Junglefowl chicks and select silver Ameraucana chicks as close to that look as possible. The same applies to the eye stripe and any other designs you see in the pattern.
John, feel free to delete this after you see it but I thought I'd make a comment here that may be helpful. I breed and show Welsummers, and while I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to the e+, ey or eWh, or any of that stuff, I can tell you that I can see the Welsummers at hatch with 100% accuracy based on their headcap and eyeliner.
If the chick has a well-defined, sharp headcap and eye-liners it's a female. If the headcap is more fuzzy and less defined and missing eye-liners it's a male. Perhaps that would hold true with those Silvers and might be helpful to someone.
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John, Under reply #1 you posted a picture of bad white coloring chicks. What makes them bad? Wont they feather out white?
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John, Under reply #1 you posted a picture of bad white coloring chicks. What makes them bad? Wont they feather out white?
Check out the last sentence in that post...
Beware of unwanted modifying genes that produce more blackish day-old chicks (see photo), since they don't mature into nice "clean" white adults.
Also check out my Reply #24 in this thread...
http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=322.15
...and there is a link there to more on the subject @The Coop
Thanks John, I see it now
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And now I know why I have two chicks in this years hatch that are white. At first I thought I got a weird splash, now I am thinking they are resesive white.
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And now I know why I have two chicks in this years hatch that are white. At first I thought I got a weird splash, now I am thinking they are resesive white.
Which means both their sire and dam are carriers of recessive white. Bred together, they will breed true for white. Bear in mind there is often leakage of a few black or gray feathers in recessive whites. People who show them routinely pluck the offending feathers, just as breeders of barred birds pluck solid black feathers, and white crested polish breeders pluck black feathers from the crest. I'm not saying it is right, just that it is commonly done.
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Thank you for this thread. It is incredibly informative to those that really want to learn the genetics behind this awesome breed.
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So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately. When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing. But all of us were in that place at one time or another. The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.
A statement that reigns so true in my life!
I guess I am there now... at the BBS cross road (with my other breeds). Can you please elaborate or point me in the right direction to learn what I am missing? Thank you
Lots of other good info here to... slowly sinking in and being mulled over. 8)
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So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately. When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing. But all of us were in that place at one time or another. The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.
A statement that reigns so true in my life!
I guess I am there now... at the BBS cross road (with my other breeds). Can you please elaborate or point me in the right direction to learn what I am missing? Thank you
Lots of other good info here to... slowly sinking in and being mulled over. 8)
Well BBS as you know are three different color varieties. Yes, the genetics do compliment each other. But continually crossing them doesnt give you a consistent breeding program. Thats why you see inconsistent shades of blue with BBS crossing, Blacks with purple sheen, blues with no lacing/edging, different body types etc.
Its not a coincident that the best blacks come from an all black flock, best blues come from carefully breeding blues, with sometimes a little black here and there
Here's my take on BBS from the quote below. (I, Replaced the word "scientist")
"Yeah, yeah, but your Ameraucana breeders were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should."
-Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
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Well, I suppose it's time to show my ignorance publicly again. I've often heard and read that to keep a good Blue and not having them "washout" that one should cross them with a Black. I definitely could be wrong but I thinking I saw that on here. From John maybe?
If it's true that Blues shouldn't be crossed to Blacks then what about the WBS? I've not concerned myself at all with breeding the W to W or the BW to BW. My breeding program has always been focused on the best 4-6 sisters to the cockbird without any concern as to whether they were W or BW. It's routine for me to breed a mix of W & BW sisters to a W or BW cockbird knowing that I would continue to get both from the mating.
So am I losing out on something?
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Personally I gave up on blue wheaten quite a while ago. I don't believe anyone can breed them close enough to the Standard to win more than BV at any show with at least some modest competition. If you breed them just because you like the color/pattern then enjoy them.
And yet Jerry DeSmidt took a BB on a bantam Blue Wheaten female at the Ohio National a number of years ago, and Russ took BB on a Blue Wheaten cock at our AA National Meet in 2017. So it can be done.
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Well, color me Stubborn! LOL I like a good challenge. I know I'm a few years away but I think I'm getting close! With y'alls help and being so gracious as you have been to answer my questions I may just get there before they plant me.
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I'm interested in learning more about chick down. Here are four chicks with different phenotypic expression of black including the 'penguin' or 'clown face' pattern to a chick that almost all black to chicks that are mostly cream. Any guesses on genotype? Keep or cull?
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Chicks 3 and 4 are blues, correct? If so they appear similar to the first/top chick to me, except for the lighter shank coloring. That might be attributable to the diluted melanin (black pigment). So at this point I would not worry too much about that, as shank color can take time to develop.
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I think those chicks labelled "bad recessive white" are cute! giggles be funny if that became a new color like buff! If I ended up with one I'd have to keep it if it was healthy and a girl!
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So much good info here. Thank you very much!
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Anyone ever see a splash from a blue x blue mating with this much yellow down? I kept it to see how it feathered and it is exhibiting a lot of blue with 1/4†wide white Feather tips?
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Here’s a picture of it at hatch
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John, I have the same question as CJ. The pics show a darker sooty gray chick as "bad" and the yellow one as normal. From what I've seen, many prefer the light gray chicks (maybe not as dark as pictured) because they are thought to be silver ground color and the yellow chicks are supposedly gold ground color. Have you found this to be accurate to assume, or still variable? With males potentially being split S/s+ and Silver being dominant, I would think even split cockerel chicks would appear Silver IF you can tell by down color. Can you see differences in chick down based on ground color? I've also seen it theorized that e allele matters and extended black and melanizer genes may be what's responsible for the differences. Wondering what your thoughts and experiences are. Personally, I've had the gray downs chicks get yellow/brassy with sun exposure too.
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Thank you. Your input confirms a lot of my own conclusions, based on what I've seen in my own Whites. I haven't bought into the theory that you can tell ground color on E and ER chick down, even with a dilute like recessive white. It's something that gets mentioned often though and I've always encouraged test-breeding and not making an assumption based on chick down.
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I'm going to disagree a little with the premise the the S link should not affect any of the self colors. That would be most obvious with Buff, which is a self color. In my experience S instead of s in Blacks is going to result in light undercolor, epecially ahead of the tail in both sexes. I saw that in my own birds years ago when I crossed Silver Laced Wyandotte bantams with Black Wyandotte bantams. And I still believe better green sheen can be achieved in blacks using s instead of S. It's not the only factor - feather structure is also important. and possibly such factors as stress, feather picking, and diet. In whites, I believe S is best instead of s to help prevent brassiness - again just one factor among others. The same would be true in lavender. We may not notice that much (if at all), because I believe lavender was built using S based blacks. And the brassiness may not be noticeable in white and lavender until the feathers get old, worn, or sunburned. So it is not just as simple as saying S should be used for this and s for that since other factors come into play.
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I wouldn't want barring in there personally, if slate legs are desired. Maybe it would be beneficial in breeds that want white or yellow legs. I've seen it in White Marans and the Cuckoo outcrossing helped with leg color in birds that did not have dermal melanin inhibitor (Id) genes. Their Standard calls for white legs, slate is a defect.
I have some Whites this season from a lavender pen. So they're homozygous for both lavender and recessive white. So far, none are expressing the shredder effect. I'm finding that very interesting and something I'm taking notes about. As always, watching for brassiness too.