Author Topic: Breeder rations  (Read 409 times)

Mike Gilbert

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Breeder rations
« on: March 30, 2019, 10:23:20 AM »
Quote from: John 3/29/2019
I'm not sure if I'll ship chicks next year.  I only accepted a few orders for this year and that hatches have been so bad that I haven't been able to fill any yet, but if I do it'll be 30 years of selling and shipping day-old Ameraucana chicks
.

John, I understand that Front View Feeds out of Ohio does an outstanding job of mixing poultry feed at just the right ratios, and they do have a breeder feed that is reasonably priced.    You can google for their site which tells about all the poultry feeds they sell, and also where their dealers are located.  But I think Clay Mills may also be dealing in it, as I purchased some from him at Portage last fall.   My birds did great on it, but I have no dealer close to me. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 11:03:39 AM by John W Blehm »
Mike Gilbert
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John W Blehm

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 11:17:27 AM »
In recent years I started feeding my breeders 18% Game Bird Breeder as a sole ration about a month before collecting hatching eggs.  Since I was hatching some pheasant chicks this year I bought 28% Pheasant Starter and had to order a ton to get it.  The price was right and I thought since this is what my chicks would eat when they hatched it should be good to feed the hens that produce the eggs.  It seemed like a good "prenatal" diet and I only added extra oyster shells to add calcium that is needed for layers. 
The problem is my hatches have been very poor.  Some eggs I've opened weren't fertile, some started developing and died at various stages.  Could the feed be the main problem?  I've done internet searches and some seen to say breeder diets need more energy/carbs than protein/amino acids, but other things I've read don't appear to agree.
Do any of you have experience with poor hatches when breeders were on a high protein diet/ration?  Any experts or links to articles?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 11:01:55 AM by John W Blehm »

Lindsay Helton

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 01:32:48 AM »
I was browsing the internet and came across the following studies on high protein consumption. They showed a causal relationship between high protein feed and reduced hatchability. I am always curious to learn about new things.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15999481_Effects_of_Maternal_Energy_and_Protein_Intakes_on_the_Incidence_of_Malformations_and_Malpositions_of_the_Embryo_and_Time_of_Death_During_Incubation

Excerpt from the article:
“A number of authors reported negative effects of a high compared to a low daily dietary CP intake (27 vs. 23, 26 vs. 21, and 25 vs. 16 g/d) during the laying period on fertility and hatchability of eggs, respectively (Pearson and Herron, 1982; Whitehead et al., 1985; Lopez and Leeson, 1995a). Moreover, Pearson and Herron (1982) reported that a high compared to a lower daily protein intake (27 vs. 23 g/d) during the laying period, resulted in an increased mortality and malformation of embryos.”

Here are a few other articles/studies that I came across that closely relate to the subject. I enjoy
reading so I’m saving these to go through this week.  :)

https://en.engormix.com/poultry-industry/articles/effects-nutrition-during-laying-t43074.htm

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8ab7/566b083bbc1dc376621f509bd39d3afc1616.pdf

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-635X2017000200231

https://www.poultryworld.net/Breeders/General/2012/3/The-golden-secrets-of-male-fertility-WP010083W/

I feed all of our grow outs Purina Flock Raiser and then swap the pullets and hens over to Purina Layena when the time comes. I wish that the Flock Raiser feed did not have corn as one of the primary ingredients, but overall I am really pleased with how well the grow outs do with it!

I hope that you get some better hatch rates. Good luck!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 09:05:27 AM by Lindsay Helton »

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 10:05:03 AM »
Thank you for sharing.   I believe the Front View breeder ration is only about 16 or 17% crude protein, and people swear by it.  So that bears out what is said in your message.   More important, apparently, is the mix of amino acids that make up the protein portion of the ration. 
Mike Gilbert
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John W Blehm

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 10:51:36 AM »
Thanks for the links, Lindsay.  They concur with the ones I read, but as with what I read there are some "contrary" studies.  The majority opinion seems to be breeders need a high energy and low protein diet. 
I opened many unhatched eggs, yesterday, that all came from the same coop.  Out of about 45 eggs only a few hatched.  As expected, some weren't fertile.  I didn't open them all, but the majority had started embryos with most dying early on.  Next year I'll go back to the Game Bird Breeder ration for breeders...live and learn.  ;)   

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 12:49:29 PM »
John, embryo mortality can also be caused by subclinical diseases.    Have your breeders been super healthy?  Or have they shown any symptoms?    For what it's worth, I didn't buy any special breeder feed this year.   Just 18% Farm and Fleet  All Flock pellets.   And no treats, although the roosters confined alone got a little black oil sunflower seed.   On average I got live chicks from about 50% of the eggs set, even in very cold weather.  I can live with that, considering the cost savings from not buying special feed.   But that rate would not be adequate for a hatchery.   Here is a link to a trouble shooting guide.   http://extension.msstate.edu/content/trouble-shooting-failures-egg-incubation
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 01:06:28 PM by Mike Gilbert »
Mike Gilbert
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John W Blehm

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 01:22:47 PM »
The only difference I could think of between this year and previous ones was the feed, especially since the protein was so much higher.  That is why I was guessing it was the culprit and the research seems to verify it.  All else being as fairly equal as I recall, I'm satisfied that was the problem.

I also had some hatching eggs sent in hoping to improve my numbers, so I could fill orders.  Hatchability of hatching eggs thru the mail generally isn't worth comparing with, but one batch of bantam lavender eggs from out east had several chicks hatch a day or so early and healthy.  Those were better odds than with my own, so that also points to the feed...the only thing different this year that I can think of. 

Lindsay Helton

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 12:55:23 AM »
Thank you for sharing.   I believe the Front View breeder ration is only about 16 or 17% crude protein, and people swear by it.  So that bears out what is said in your message.   More important, apparently, is the mix of amino acids that make up the protein portion of the ration.

I will have to look into the Front View feeds!  :)

Lindsay Helton

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 01:09:46 AM »
Thanks for the links, Lindsay.  They concur with the ones I read, but as with what I read there are some "contrary" studies.  The majority opinion seems to be breeders need a high energy and low protein diet. 
I opened many unhatched eggs, yesterday, that all came from the same coop.  Out of about 45 eggs only a few hatched.  As expected, some weren't fertile.  I didn't open them all, but the majority had started embryos with most dying early on.  Next year I'll go back to the Game Bird Breeder ration for breeders...live and learn.  ;)

I agree. I saw a few studies out there that showed conflicting results as well. There are so many feeds out there at such a wide array of prices. It is mind boggling to me. :)

Janie Vilá

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2019, 11:10:29 PM »
This is an interesting thread of thought.  Something that i am constantly researching. I have fed dumor, blue seal, purina and now nutrena. I really like that manna pro has realized that some folks don't appreciate the soy content in their animals feed. They have a layer pellet that contains fish meal, but a small bag is $17.99. There is corn as the first ingredient however i think of corn as a binder grain because when ground it makes  a paste.
When i took over Chris Kings silver flock, i changed the feed i was buying to nutrena, however i had already been supplementing once a week over feed with a product called "Power Punch". I noticed right away an increase in laying and vitality in the birds. A little goes a long ways.
I feel like most of the great nutrients our birds need are cooked out of the feed.
There is also a calcium drench i have on hand. It is slso packed full of those essential vitamins and minerals.  (I have milk goats on our farm)
I think from this standpoint, humans are given a prenatal vitamin,  so are other animals. I have had 3 excellent hatches over the past week. I am certain the vitamins have something to do with that.

Lindsay Helton

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Re: Breeder rations
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 10:36:26 AM »
This is an interesting thread of thought.  Something that i am constantly researching. I have fed dumor, blue seal, purina and now nutrena. I really like that manna pro has realized that some folks don't appreciate the soy content in their animals feed. They have a layer pellet that contains fish meal, but a small bag is $17.99. There is corn as the first ingredient however i think of corn as a binder grain because when ground it makes  a paste.
When i took over Chris Kings silver flock, i changed the feed i was buying to nutrena, however i had already been supplementing once a week over feed with a product called "Power Punch". I noticed right away an increase in laying and vitality in the birds. A little goes a long ways.
I feel like most of the great nutrients our birds need are cooked out of the feed.
There is also a calcium drench i have on hand. It is slso packed full of those essential vitamins and minerals.  (I have milk goats on our farm)
I think from this standpoint, humans are given a prenatal vitamin,  so are other animals. I have had 3 excellent hatches over the past week. I am certain the vitamins have something to do with that.

I think nutrients/vitamins help too. I take a vitamin daily so why not also do the same for them? Lol! I like to add a dollop of Red Cell to the three gallon waterers when I refill them. I have been doing it for the past three years with no adverse effects. A poultry friend recommended a breeder solution to add during breeding season and it has also been helpful. I gave it to a pen that was showing fertility issues and both egg laying and fertility has gradually increased. I think I will start buying it yearly to add to the waterers during chick season. It certainly doesn’t seem to hurt anything.  :)

https://www.twincitypoultrysupplies.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=597&zenid=7cfp2l2l7jo9r9gmokprk31b42