Author Topic: lavender vs self blue  (Read 9931 times)

John W Blehm

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lavender vs self blue
« on: June 12, 2015, 03:03:43 PM »
It has been over a decade since Michael Muenks and I started creating bantam lavender Ameraucanas (in 2005).  Michael used lavender Old English Game and I used lavender d’Anver to bring in the lavender gene/color.  We both crossed to black Ameraucanas.
I also started developing large fowl lavenders, in 2005, using the bantams crossed to large fowl black Ameraucanas. (corrected "2006" to "2005", on  1/30/17)
 
Lavender and blue are very similar, but different colors created by different genes.  They look like shades of gray to me with lavender being lighter and more of an even color.  Before the lavender gene was properly identified and labeled “lavender” (lav) the variety (color) it created was named “self blue”.  The word “self” means “same”; different breeders use it in different ways, but here it was meant that the blue color was the same all over the bird without lacing or any other variation.  Today we know that both the phenotype and genotype of lavender and self blue are different.  Blue is created when an otherwise black bird has one copy of the dominant blue (Bl) gene.  It doesn’t breed true.  A blue chicken bred to a blue chicken will produce black, splash and blue chicks.  I don’t know of any breeds that have a true “self blue” variety recognized according to the dictionary definition.  Andalusian blue would be a prime example of the blue (Bl) color, but it has lacing so it is not what they call “self” blue. Lavender on the other hand does breed true.  A lavender chicken bred to a lavender chicken produces only lavender offspring (of course there are exceptions to every rule). 

Since the APA and ABA officially call the lavender variety self blue they are the same variety according to them.  Fred Jeffrey in his book BANTAM CHICKENS also lists at least 10 other names for this same color. So lavender and self blue are the same variety or they are two different things, depending on the definition of the term “self blue” we are using at the time.
I’ve heard the term “self” used to describe that the crest on a Polish chicken was the same color as the rest of the bird, that a d’Uccle was not mottled and that a black bird without green sheen is self black.  “Self” is an old term and is often very confusing.  The standard uses variety names like buff, black and white without the word “self” as a prefix even though they are "self" colors, yet with blue they feel they need to include it.  I guess when someone wants to get lavender silver or lavender wheaten recognized the powers that be will require name changes to “self blue silver” and “self blue wheaten”.  A lavender buff will have a difficult time getting recognized as “lavender buff’’ or “pink”!  If bantam and/or large fowl Ameraucanas are ever recognized as such by the APA/ABA they should be recognized as "lavender" or not recognized at all.  I’ve suggested to the APA that once lavender Ameraucanas are accepted they should refer to the APA's "self blue" PLUMAGE description (page 178 of my 1998 Standard) while retaining the official "lavender" variety name. Perhaps it would be a good time for the APA to include the lavender name as an alternative in the self blue description...such as "self blue/lavender".  This isn't asking for any radical change or to have the Standards rewritten as some have claimed.  Other breed clubs that want to get their lavender varieties accepted should be able to do the same or have them accepted under the self blue name if that is what they want.  Some have suggested that all the current “self blue” varieties would have to agree to change them all to the lavender name or none at all.  Again this isn't true.  No one is asking them to change the names of their already accepted varieties or to correct the mistake in terminology, but welcome them to if they so desire.  Radical change is not needed here and isn't being asked for.  I would imagine that someday in the decades ahead all the misnamed self blues will be lavenders.

From the Dutch bantam book translated to english.
Lavender
Quote
In contrast to the blue, the colour lavender had no difference in shade between certain body parts. The aim is to achieve an even shade of silver gray all over the body and it is significantly lighter than blue.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 09:04:56 PM by John W Blehm »

Cesar Villegas

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2015, 08:25:19 PM »
It has been over a decade since Michael Muenks and I started creating bantam lavender Ameraucanas.  Michael used lavender Old English Game and I used lavender d’Anver to bring in the lavender gene/color.  We both crossed to black Ameraucanas.
A year later, in 2006, I started developing large fowl lavenders using the bantams crossed to large fowl black Ameraucanas.
 
Lavender and blue are very similar, but different colors created by different genes.  They look like shades of gray to me with lavender being lighter and more of an even color.  Before the lavender gene was properly identified and labeled “lavender” (lav) the variety (color) it created was named “self blue”.  The word “self” means “same”; different breeders use it in different ways, but here it was meant that the blue color was the same all over the bird without lacing or any other variation.  Today we know that both the phenotype and genotype of lavender and self blue are different.  Blue is created when an otherwise black bird has one copy of the dominant blue (Bl) gene.  It doesn’t breed true.  A blue chicken bred to a blue chicken will produce black, splash and blue chicks.  I don’t know of any breeds that have a true “self blue” variety recognized according to the dictionary definition.  Andalusian blue would be a prime example of the blue (Bl) color, but it has lacing so it is not what they call “self” blue. Lavender on the other hand does breed true.  A lavender chicken bred to a lavender chicken produces only lavender offspring. 

Since the APA and ABA officially call the lavender variety self blue they are the same variety according to them.  Fred Jeffrey in his book BANTAM CHICKENS also lists at least 10 other names for this same color. So lavender and self blue are the same variety or they are two different things, depending on the definition of the term “self blue” we are using at the time.
I’ve heard the term “self” used to describe that the crest on a Polish chicken was the same color as the rest of the bird, that a d’Uccle was not mottled and that a black bird without green sheen is self black.  “Self” is an old term and is often very confusing.  The standard uses variety names like buff, black and white without the word “self” as a prefix even though they are "self" colors, yet with blue they feel they need to include it.  I guess when someone wants to get lavender silver or lavender wheaten recognized the powers that be will require name changes to “self blue silver” and “self blue wheaten”.  A lavender buff will have a difficult time getting recognized as “lavender buff’’ or “pink”!  If bantam and/or large fowl Ameraucanas are ever recognized as such by the APA/ABA they should be recognized as "lavender" or not recognized at all.  I’ve suggested to the APA that once lavender Ameraucanas are accepted they should refer to the APA's "self blue" PLUMAGE description (page 178 of my 1998 Standard) while retaining the official "lavender" variety name. Perhaps it would be a good time for the APA to include the lavender name as an alternative in the self blue description...such as "self blue/lavender".  This isn't asking for any radical change or to have the Standards rewritten as some have claimed.  Other breed clubs that want to get their lavender varieties accepted should be able to do the same or have them accepted under the self blue name if that is what they want.  Some have suggested that all the current “self blue” varieties would have to agree to change them all to the lavender name or none at all.  Again this isn't true.  No one is asking them to change the names of their already accepted varieties or to correct the mistake in terminology, but welcome them to if they so desire.  Radical change is not needed here and isn't being asked for.  I would imagine that someday in the decades ahead all the misnamed self blues will be lavenders.

From the Dutch bantam book translated to english.
Lavender
Quote
In contrast to the blue, the colour lavender had no difference in shade between certain body parts. The aim is to achieve an even shade of silver gray all over the body and it is significantly lighter than blue.

John any word if Lavender for both bantam and LF will be recognized any time soon?

John W Blehm

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2015, 08:50:42 PM »
No.  The APA recently changed their rules in the middle of the game and now all 5 breeders that have been breeding them for 5 years must have been APA members for those 5 years.  I've never been a member so that means I wouldn't be one of the 5 needed, but I'm sure there are at least 5 APA members out there that have had them for time required...at least with LF.  I think the bigger obstacle is that from what we've heard the APA and especially the ABA would want us to settle for the "self blue" variety name.  Personally although it would be nice to see lavenders accepted, I would rather just continue breeding, selling and showing lavenders than to see them accepted as self blue.  I feel that would be caving in to the APA/ABA like the Silkie club did.  One option we've discussed is trying to get LF accepted first so we don't have to deal with the ABA and the APA may be more receptive to "lavender".
Having said that I'm sure the club would pursue getting "lavender" accepted if enough APA members, that have bred them for 5 years, want to push for it.

The Malcolms

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2015, 09:40:22 PM »
I don't know enough to know if this helps but the APA does accept the lavender variety in Guinea Fowl...

Beth Curran

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 08:35:37 AM »
I'm guessing that 5 years has to be with no lapses in membership? I've been a member but since it hasn't been a high priority thing, I've let it lapse here and there. It's a dirty trick to change the rules and not grandfather, but I'm sure that was the point...
Beth Curran

Harry Shaffer

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 05:09:41 PM »
Well the term "Self BLue" has been a term that has been used for over a century.  When they bred black Orpingtons to White Orpingtons in the early 1900's they called the blues  "Self Blues".  They were blues the real ones and not lavender without lacing.  Since then the standard was changed that all blues had to have lacing like the Andalusian blues.  So things change with time and so will the term Lavender be used eventually because that is the correct scientific term to use.

John W Blehm

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2016, 03:48:05 PM »
<<Differences between Lavender & Blue>>

Quote
How to distinguish between Lavender & Blue

It is very easy to identify a Lavender bird by looking at the main tail feathers. If the outer-side feather shaft is pale & the inner feather shaft is dark, it is more than likely Lavender. The inner feather-web has a darker iridescent-like sheen, extending outwards from the shaft.

The andulusian type blue (Bl/bl) usually have dark feather shafts, regardless whether laced or non-laced. No matter how pale in colour, the blues (Bl/bl) don’t have the same tail characteristics (as above), as the lavenders.
 
the lav/blues have a combination of traits from both varieties. Some signs of lav/lav, Bl/bl (Lavender/Blue) are:

* paler lavender shade
* darker feather shafts
* roos with darker hackles.

It is rather frowned upon in the Belgian Barbu bantam world, mixing lav (Lavender) with Bl (Blue), as the above traits are considered flaws in lavender varieties. Lavenders are to have:

Lavenders (lav/lav)
Both genders: even lavender shade throughout, no sexual dimorphism
* Light feather shafts on outside
* Darker feather colour (web & shafts) on inside. This applies to both Lavender colour & gold/straw colour on Porcelaines.

There is the known feather quality issues with lavenders, eg wing patch in roos, fret marks, etc, although the wing patches are not found in all lavenders. Then there is the trait of darker flecks or darker feathers in the blues, plus the sexual dimorphic traits.

More can be found here: Question for Kazjaps on lavender vs blue
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 02:59:42 PM by John W Blehm »

John W Blehm

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2016, 09:49:51 PM »
I did a search on the BYC forum for "lavender" and found topics for:
Lavender Orpington
Lavender Silkie
Lavender Marans
Lavender Easter Egger
Lavender Araucana
Lavender Polish
Lavender Cochin
Lavender Brahma
and even Lavender Ameraucana!
I think we really started something when Michael and I created the first lavender bantam Ameraucanas in North America.  Since then lavender has been picked up by many other breeds and some that aren't breeds. 

Spencer Crouse

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2016, 09:52:38 AM »
I think the name Lavender sounds more appealing than self blue.

Yet what it boils down to is if the apa would even consider having a bird called lavender over self blue.

Lavender guinea are the only thing the apa recognizes with the name lavender, all other poultry are listed as self blue.

I personally think there is a much better chance the apa would recognize the new variety if it was listed as self blue.

The ABC is also trying to get the lavender/self blue variety accepted. They are going for the self blue title.

If its all about the hobby and the betterment of the breed I believe self blue would better benefit the process of getting the apa to recognize the variety. Naming the birds lavender instead of self blue seems like we are going against the apa naming and could cause us to not have the color accepted for many more years.

For everyone raising lavenders or self blues, the term you call them is what is documented so if you raise lavenders for 5 years and the name lavender is not accepted you can not change the name and say you raised self blues for 5 years to count toward the 5 years of showing the breed... just some food for thought.

Spencer Crouse

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 09:57:34 AM »
Also I am all for unbiased equality.
The email that was sent asking to vote for:

1. lavender
2. self blue
3. dont care

Clearly was pushing members to vote for lavender and not self blue.
I strongly believe unbiased wording would better benefit the club.


John W Blehm

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 10:39:31 AM »
Also I am all for unbiased equality.
The email that was sent asking to vote for:

1. lavender
2. self blue
3. dont care

Clearly was pushing members to vote for lavender and not self blue.
I strongly believe unbiased wording would better benefit the club.

Spencer,

The entire email is posted below.  I told everyone that "my position is clear" and Mike "leans the same way".  It only asks for the member's vote without any bias that I'm aware of.  It has been my position from the start, with the majority of club members all these years, to only have them recognized as lavender. 
I do understand some would have preferred "no preference" rather than "don't care" as the wording for the 3rd option.

Quote
Our club is considering petitioning the APA to get large fowl lavender Ameraucanas as an accepted variety.  Some fanciers are opposed to the “lavender” name and prefer “self blue”.  More information about the two names is in the attached article and on at this link to the Ameraucana Forum.  I created LF lavender Ameraucanas as “lavender”, so my position is clear and Mike’s attached article leans the same way.  Please vote, by reply email, to let our acceptance committee know if enough members support “lavender” before moving forward.
 
PLEASE VOTE FOR ONE OF THE THREE OPTIONS
1.     Lavender
2.     Self Blue
3.     Don’t care
 
Thank you,
 
John W Blehm
Ameraucana Alliance

What we are seeing is that while most breeders of lavender, regardless of the breed, want the name lavender.  More and more are willing to settle for self blue just to get them recognized, using the “you can’t fight city hall” argument.  There is no incentive for me to go with the flow.  We started using the lavender name in North America, but the Silkie folks were first to try to get lavender on the books and caved to ABA pressure.  Since then the dominoes continue to fall.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 11:18:36 AM by John W Blehm »

Mike Gilbert

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 11:42:45 AM »
Our members have voted, and the overwhelming majority is for lavender.   It's time to come together as a club in order to present a united effort in the attempt to get this done.    If we fail, the other club will still get them recognized, only under a different name, so what do we have to lose by trying?
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.   
Mike Gilbert
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Russ Blair

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2016, 12:47:40 PM »
I agree Mike, if the vote is for Lavender then let's move forward.
S.E. Michigan

Mike Gilbert

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2016, 03:02:39 PM »
We are in the process of compiling an address list to find out which members are willing to help out with affidavits and qualifying meets.   They must be APA members five years, and that is one of the questions being asked.    Russ, you will be among those receiving an email soon.
Mike Gilbert
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Cesar Villegas

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Re: lavender vs self blue
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 03:43:39 PM »
Everyone I know calls them Lavender. So Lavender has my vote