Author Topic: Wing Carriage in Bantams  (Read 1089 times)

Cesar Villegas

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Wing Carriage in Bantams
« on: June 18, 2015, 08:25:49 AM »
Is an example of proper wing carriage on bantams shown on the clubs photo album under the "white male bantam" and "wheaten female bantam"? In all other photos the wing carriage seems to point down. Or is the wing carriage ok in the other varieties?

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Wing Carriage in Bantams
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2015, 08:32:01 AM »
The Standard says the wings are to be carried above the hock joint.   It does not say how much above.  As long as they are not too low, I believe they are okay.     Over the years judges have seemed to agree.
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11-13

Steve Neumann

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Re: Wing Carriage in Bantams
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2019, 01:21:51 AM »
I am bumping this thread to the top because I am curious to hear.  Above the hock joint.  Was this the original intended language for the standard?  In retrospect, do you wish that the standard had been written to say, "just above the hock joint" to eliminate the spectrum of wing placement preference, or do you think that this is the ideal language to allow wiggle room, and that a spectrum of wing carriages are an acceptable or even desirable thing?  With the number of people breeding in bigger birds in the LF, most with higher wing carriage, it seems that a higher wing carriage has become "the fashion," and it is within the language constraints of the standard.  But I see LF birds with wing carriage "just above the hock joint" drawing criticism from even experienced breeders and judges that wing carriage as originally intended in the standard is "too low."  Can wing carriage be above the hock joint and be "too low?"  If so, how?  Also, at what point is it too high?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 01:26:51 AM by Steve Neumann »

Suki

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Re: Wing Carriage in Bantams
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 12:52:25 PM »

Steve mentioned breeding bigger birds in Large Fowl...I would imagine he meant larger than the standard allows?  I would agree that that's a real problem in a lot of breeds like the Orpington.  I haven't seen much of that in Ameraucanas though one gal on FB seems to have lavenders that are immense but that could be the angle of the camera.


Suki
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Mike Gilbert

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Re: Wing Carriage in Bantams
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2019, 05:44:06 PM »
I am bumping this thread to the top because I am curious to hear.  Above the hock joint.  Was this the original intended language for the standard?  In retrospect, do you wish that the standard had been written to say, "just above the hock joint" to eliminate the spectrum of wing placement preference, or do you think that this is the ideal language to allow wiggle room, and that a spectrum of wing carriages are an acceptable or even desirable thing?  With the number of people breeding in bigger birds in the LF, most with higher wing carriage, it seems that a higher wing carriage has become "the fashion," and it is within the language constraints of the standard.  But I see LF birds with wing carriage "just above the hock joint" drawing criticism from even experienced breeders and judges that wing carriage as originally intended in the standard is "too low."  Can wing carriage be above the hock joint and be "too low?"  If so, how?  Also, at what point is it too high?

I think a lot of folks get too attached to whatever their personal preferences happen to be, and forget about comparing their birds to the Standard descriptions.  I don't believe the wording is all that confusing.   If male wing carriage was supposed to be high, the standards would have a description like "well tucked up" or something of that nature.  There is a difference in wing carriage between the two genders, so females will carry their wings higher than males.    That is what the "well folded" means in the Standard for females.   

As well, I see photos of Ameraucanas that have feathering akin to Orpingtons or Wyandottes.  Too fluffy, too loose, too soft.  I see that as a breeding error also.   We also need to stay away from fan shaped tails when viewed from the side, especially in females.   Fanned tails are the opposite of pinched tails.    So neither fan shaped nor pinched is correct. 

With all aspects of breeding Ameraucanas the key word is moderate.  Or medium.   There should be no extremes.   If we do that we will be breeding birds with proper balance and won't run into as many problems.
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11-13

John W Blehm

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Re: Wing Carriage in Bantams
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2019, 01:49:44 PM »
I believe bantam silver and wheaten Ameraucana males tend to carry their wings too low more often than the other varieties.  It is probably due to their Old English ancestry and I believe outcrosses to other varieties could help with this and other areas.  Of course that type of project is for those that have the time and patience.
Yesterday I was sitting in a lawn chair admiring some bantams and took a few photos of this bantam buff cock.  Realizing that it is not easy to snap photos just at the right time showing proper tail and wing carriage, let alone all the other attributes, here are a couple of those photos.  Not the sun is washing out some colors, but he has great slate shanks and bay eyes.  His pea comb shows three distinct ridges and near perfection, in my opinion.  In the top photo with the more natural pose his tail angle an wing carriage are just where I believe they should be.
 

Suki

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Re: Wing Carriage in Bantams
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2019, 06:29:04 PM »
I believe bantam silver and wheaten Ameraucana males tend to carry their wings too low more often than the other varieties.  It is probably due to their Old English ancestry and I believe outcrosses to other varieties could help with this and other areas.  Of course that type of project is for those that have the time and patience. 
Nice shots.  I  agree about the wing carriage, tail seems fine.  I am surprised though that since we have such few colours why overall the birds are not picture perfect yet.  It seems like an anomaly to me.

Happy Palm Sunday to those who celebrate today, Sue