Silver x Buff Cross ?

[Cesar Villegas]

I remember reading a post, I believe it was by John Blehm.

The post was about crossing a silver male with a buff female. If it was you John, can you please re-post it? Along with the pictures and any or updated pictures of a F1 pullet that looked like silver off the bat.

[John W Blehm]

A couple years ago I crossed a LF silver cock over a LF buff hen and the three chicks, below, are the result.  I also attempted the same cross with bantams, but the eggs weren't fertile early on in the hatching season.
Two chicks appear to carry gold and one silver.  Because silver (S) is a sex linked gene the silver (cream) chick should be a pullet (S/S) and the gold (buff) ones should be cockerels (S/s+). 
Buffs are supposedly based on E^Wh (wheaten) which is dominant to e+ (wildtype/duckwing) and silvers are based on it.  I thought the chick phenotype would look more like a wheaten chick, but they look more like wildtype.   

[John W Blehm]

I really doubt the buff hen is E^Wh/e+, but that would explain the markings.  The idea of recessive wheaten (e^y) comes to mind or maybe E^Wh is just showing incomplete dominance in combination with whatever other genes that make it act like e^y.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_elocus

Dr Ron Okimoto on E locus alleles order of dominance, and Recessive Wheaten..... (quote from E-locus: Order of dominance (again!)  , posted August 12, 2006) ......

Even E isn't completely dominant on some genetic backgrounds. In some cases I've gotten eWH ER heterozygotes that look like eb birds.

Recessive wheaten is a strange story, but Smyth has told me that he used to maintain a recessive wheaten line, and Morejohn had a Red Junglefowl line that segregated wheaten downed chicks from wild-type parents in 3:1.

 There probably is a recessive wheaten somewhere. I found a Buff Rock line that segregates for a weird E locus allele that seems to be a double mutant. I got it from McMurray. It has the Fayoumi birchin mutation and the dominant wheaten mutation in the same gene. I don't know what the phenotype of such a bird would be like. The Fayoumi mutation would send signal all the time (produce black pigment) and the wheaten mutation would inhibit signal propagation. At least, that is the theory if wheaten is like red fur color in mammals.

 The idea is that dominant wheaten is dominant because of haplo insufficiency. This just means that in the presence of wheaten not enough signal is sent by the e+ or eb allele product and you get wheaten instead of stippled. Recessive wheaten would produce enough signal so that heterozygotes could still produce stippling, but homozygous recessive wheatens could not because two low signal producing gene products could not produce enough signal to produce stippling.

 You can look at it like this, say that eWh eWh homozygotes produced 0 signal, eWh e+ heterozygotes produced 1/2 signal, but it isn't enough to produce wild-type phenotypes. Recessive wheaten might produce 1/4 signal or homozygous ey ey would produce 1/2 signal and heterozygous ey e+ would produce 3/4 (1/4 + 1/2)signal. The ey ey homozygotes would not produce enough signal and be wheaten, but the ey e+ heterozygotes do.

 E and ER would be dominant to wheaten because the E and ER gene products produce enough signal in the heterozygotes to continue to produce the black phenotypes.

 The E allele would be expected to send the most signal and has been found to not be regulated properly and seems to always send signal whether the receptor binds hormone or not. So it is always on and always sending signal to make black pigment. It has two mutations that in mammals are associated with black fur. One of the mutations is found in black wooled sheep, and the other is found in black furred mice. The E allele combines those two mutations. The probable birchin allele has only one of these (the one found in mice) two mutations and so may not send as much signal as the E allele product. The Fayoumi birchin allele has a totally different mutation that has not been found in mammals at this time, but produces a similar phenotype to the birchin (ER) allele.

 The funky allele that I found in Buff Rocks has the dominant wheaten mutation and the Fayoumi birchin mutation combined. The two mutations should do different things to the gene. Beats me what it looks like without the columbian restrictors.
I made some text in the quotes bold to emphasize it.

[John W Blehm]

Buffs are the most docile variety of Ameraucana (my opinion) and silvers the least, so this could help develop some calmer silvers.  It has given them an increase in size, shortened the tails, improved overall type and decrease the height of the combs...which were all part of the plan.  I believe LF blacks are the "standard" for other LF varieties to try to emulate and I've crossed them into my silvers before also.

[Stan Alder]

I might have gotten some chicks from that breeding from you John.....The silvers you sent me were very friendly from day one. They meet me at the gate every time I head out there...almost time to make some serious selecting for keepers and I have a question though...you told me that the pullets would be  lacking in the salmon breast color, and they are. However I want to use them for the size and temperament...will a well colored male influence the salmon color in the chicks from this breeding or is the salmon sex linked???

[John W Blehm]

I might have gotten some chicks from that breeding from you John.....The silvers you sent me were very friendly from day one. They meet me at the gate every time I head out there...almost time to make some serious selecting for keepers and I have a question though...you told me that the pullets would be  lacking in the salmon breast color, and they are. However I want to use them for the size and temperament...will a well colored male influence the salmon color in the chicks from this breeding or is the salmon sex linked???

Yes, I would use them.  The salmon breast isn't sex linked, but on the females it is an indicator of wildtype (e+).  The original cross with buff was two years ago now and, as I mentioned in an email, some of chicks you received are descended from it.  I believe they will have a slit in either the inside or outside web for their left foot.  Chris King and others received some too.  I would assume they would have at least a hint of salmon breast, but even if not I would use the best cockerels, without a slit in their left foot's web, over those pullets. 
I haven't caught any of mine lately and studied them in hand, but they standout in the small flock I kept with better type, softer feathers and larger size.

[The Malcolms]

Buffs are the most docile variety of Ameraucana (my opinion) and silvers the least, so this could help develop some calmer silvers.  It has given them an increase in size, shortened the tails, improved overall type and decrease the height of the combs...which were all part of the plan.  I believe LF blacks are the "standard" for other LF varieties to try to emulate and I've crossed them into my silvers before also.

How important is temperament in silvers?  It is important to us because the kids do most of the work with the birds but in general how much do others value this?  Walter's bantam silver hen from John's line is an extremely docile yet confident bird.  She has good size and lays a beautiful color and shaped egg.  She is our only silver.  Is it worth finding a well shaped and colored male to breed her to?  Should we just start fresh with any silver bantams?

[John W Blehm]

How important is temperament in silvers?

Very important in all the varieties is my answer.  I'm not saying silvers are mean, but flightier and than the others.  Part of the reasons for the outcrosses with other varieties, with both bantams and LF, was to make them calmer but there were many possible benefits.  When it comes to temperament the proper genes are necessary, but as you know environment plays a major role.

Is it worth finding a well shaped and colored male to breed her to?  Should we just start fresh with any silver bantams?

I suggest finding the best male you can to put over her.  Keep in mind bantam silvers generally lack the good Ameraucana type that the other varieties have.  I've had a silver cockerel disqualified for "comb".  It was a pea comb, but looked almost like a single comb and that is problem with bantam silver males.  Extra small muffs and extra long tails are other problems. 

[Cesar Villegas]

Has the improvement been maintained after a 2 years of breeding?

[John W Blehm]

Has the improvement been maintained after a 2 years of breeding?

I believe so and Stan is seeing it.  It will take more time to set the good traits that were brought in. 
I've also outcrossed the silvers with blacks and that helped reduce shafting, but also meant some females had darker heads than before. 
This year I crossed the silver/buff line with the silver black line.  I don't think I kept many from that cross, but the next time I sort thru birds I'll check to see if any will be potential breeders.

[Cesar Villegas]

Has the improvement been maintained after a 2 years of breeding?

I believe so and Stan is seeing it.  It will take more time to set the good traits that were brought in. 
I've also outcrossed the silvers with blacks and that helped reduce shafting, but also meant some females had darker heads than before. 
This year I crossed the silver/buff line with the silver black line.  I don't think I kept many from that cross, but the next time I sort thru birds I'll check to see if any will be potential breeders.

The silver/black cross, did that produce all F1 black chicks since E is domiant over e+? What generation did you start seeing silver pattern again?

[John W Blehm]

The silver/black cross, did that produce all F1 black chicks since E is dominant over e+? What generation did you start seeing silver pattern again?

All black colored chicks the first year was expected and believe that is what I got.  I'd probably remembered if it were different.  The second year would have been when the silver pattern appeared, since I kept just the pullets from F1 and put a silver cock over them.

[Cesar Villegas]

The silver/black cross, did that produce all F1 black chicks since E is domiant over e+? What generation did you start seeing silver pattern again?

All black colored chicks the first year was expected and believe that is what I got.  I've probably remember if it were different.  The second year would have been when the silver pattern appeared, since I kept just the pullets from F1 and put a silver cock over them.

John, Im assuming you kept just the pullets because you used a silver cock that transferred the silver gene to just the pullets?

[John W Blehm]

John, Im assuming you kept just the pullets because you used a silver cock that transferred the silver gene to just the pullets?

Exactly.  My blacks carry gold (s), so by going this route I was able to be sure all the F2 birds were pure for silver (the S gene, not the variety "silver") in this outcross project.  It goes back to the procedure I described in the Breeding Lavender Split? topic.