mating for Beards

[Suki]

If I mate two -2- birds with muffs and beards-and the f1  offspring all have muffs and boards, can I be sure I have a genetically pure AM strain? 


Thanks Sue

[Mike Gilbert]

Not necessarily.   It would depend on the sample size if both parents were genetically impure for Mb.   I would say if you hatch at least 10 - 12 chicks and they are all muffed you could be about 95% sure at least one of the parents is.    But what if one parent is pure for Mb and the other is clean faced?    Since Mb is dominant, all chicks would be muffed, but they would all be impure for that trait.    The best way to be sure is to test each bird by mating him/her to a clean faced bird.    If you get ANY clean faced chicks from the test mating you would know the muffed test bird is impure.   The same principle holds true for any single gene autosomal dominant trait.   

[Tailfeathers]

Sue, I'm not sure what you're asking or what you mean by "genetically pure AM strain".  So, with that understanding, I'll just add that the Mb gene is not restricted to just Ameraucanas so can't be used as an exclusive qualifier for a "pure AM strain". 

For example, I have a hen in my coop right now that if I were to show her to you, you'd swear she's a Blue Ameraucana.  And she actually looks pretty doggone good too in Type and Color.  However, I've never had Blacks/Blues.  I do have Black Langshans and Black/Blue Jersey Giants.  Since she's not feather-legged I'm assuming she's a cross between my Blue Jersey Giant cockbird and one of my Am females that came from the first two dozen eggs I collected when I set the breeding pens up.  After waiting 2wks I collect but always just hatch the 3rd weeks eggs as unknowns and don't start toe-punching until the following week.  Anyways, all that is just to say that hen would obviously not be a "pure AM strain". 

My guess is that there are other muff/bearded breeds that one could probably cross to and get an Am when a phenotype that might look like an approved variety now.

[Shari Nees]

Salmon Favorelles in the big breeds, have nice muffs and beard.  Belgian d'Uccle and Belgian d'Anvers should have a nice generous muffs and beard... so there are other breeds that have muffs and beards.

[Mike Gilbert]

Sue is smarter than to assume that a chicken with muffs and beards is automatically an Ameraucana.   She is no novice, so lets give her some credit.   

[Suki]

Salmon Favorelles in the big breeds, have nice muffs and beard.  Belgian d'Uccle and Belgian d'Anvers should have a nice generous muffs and beard... so there are other breeds that have muffs and beards.

https://livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/faverolles  To be honest, never thought of that.  I guess it is out there tho.

[Shari Nees]

Sue is smarter than to assume that a chicken with muffs and beards is automatically an Ameraucana.   She is no novice, so lets give her some credit.

Never said she wasn't.  Just talking about other breeds that have muffs and beards.

Had Salmon Favorelles in the past, loved the breed but the chicks were very fragile.

[Suki]

Never said she wasn't.  Just talking about other breeds that have muffs and beards.
Had Salmon Favorelles in the past, loved the breed but the chicks were very fragile.

Yes it is good point Shari but to clarify since Royce also misunderstood me, I was just referring to Am and how long, how many generations, before you have a _clean_  homozygous line, as I understand that is what makes the fullest m&b.

 So since that is clear, my next question on the topic is How long does it take for a m&b to come in full?  I've read various #'s on FB and some, 2 years, sound wild.  I would think it would be by the time they were a year old, but based on the APA winner, that sounds too long too -- so how long is it when you know that the m&b they have is it?

Thanks.

[Mike Gilbert]

Sue, that is going to depend on whether those muffs and beards are getting picked out by other birds during the grow-out process.   If that is not occurring, then those feathers will be there at least by the time all the other feathers are grown in.   If they are getting picked out you may have to wait until an adult molt happens.  As we discussed on Facebook, the best time to show a pullet is at point of lay (POL).   Cockerels normally take a while longer because it seems the hackles and muffs take longer to develop.   You notice this especially in wheatens and blue wheatens, as the cockerels' muff feathers don't turn fully black (or gray) until all the adult feathers are in.   With solid colors the juvenile feathers are the same color as the adult feathers so you don't notice it.

[John W Blehm]

Yes it is good point Shari but to clarify since Royce also misunderstood me, I was just referring to Am and how long, how many generations, before you have a _clean_  homozygous line, as I understand that is what makes the fullest m&b.

 So since that is clear, my next question on the topic is How long does it take for a m&b to come in full?  I've read various #'s on FB and some, 2 years, sound wild.  I would think it would be by the time they were a year old, but based on the APA winner, that sounds too long too -- so how long is it when you know that the m&b they have is it?

Thanks.

Lee G pointed out in another topic that day-old chicks that are pure for muffs have fuller ones than those that are not, so cull early for this trait and you'll improve the muffs in your line quickly. 
http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=415.msg3009#msg3009

[Shari Nees]

One of the many reasons I picked Broken Toe as my Rooster, his beard and muffs, were a nice dark blue right off the bat and very full.

Sadly, one or more the the girls has been grooming him and pulling out some of his beard.

Have another rooster, a very nice d'Uccle who has an incredible beard and muffs... but the last batch of girls made him bald. He is now in a pen by himself and he is slowly growing everything back in.

If you are going to show, the only way I can see to have them keep their muffs and beard, is to keep them in their own pens.

Using my d'Uccles as an example....  they are born with muffs and beards, and will grow in quickly. Some of them have hatched with such full muffs, the baby feathers were in their eyes and a bit of a problem. One has to watch for that.
 Now my d'Anvers, chicks do have a nice beards and muffs, but when their first feathers come in, their M&B's take a little longer to come in.

Since I have only raised one Gen of AM's... with my Blue Wheatens, they hatched out with full muffs and beards. When their first feathers came in, it took a month or so for their M&B's to come back in. 

[Dawn Webster]

Beards are my biggest frustration with showing Ameraucana's. They look wonderful on the POL pullets but to try and show a Hen or Cock unless you can catch them in the first 2 months after molt... good luck. I've never had any luck forcing a molt early so they can be in good shape before the fall show season. In Canada we don't really have a winter show season at least not on the West Coast.