Author Topic: Chick Phenotype  (Read 21384 times)

John W Blehm

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 09:03:45 PM »
John, Under reply #1 you posted a picture of bad white coloring chicks. What makes them bad? Wont they feather out white?

Check out the last sentence in that post...
Quote
Beware of unwanted modifying genes that produce more blackish day-old chicks (see photo), since they don't mature into nice "clean" white adults.

Also check out my Reply #24 in this thread...
http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=322.15
...and there is a link there to more on the subject @The Coop

Cesar Villegas

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 10:17:51 PM »
John, Under reply #1 you posted a picture of bad white coloring chicks. What makes them bad? Wont they feather out white?

Check out the last sentence in that post...
Quote
Beware of unwanted modifying genes that produce more blackish day-old chicks (see photo), since they don't mature into nice "clean" white adults.

Also check out my Reply #24 in this thread...
http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=322.15
...and there is a link there to more on the subject @The Coop

Thanks John, I see it now

Jensen Pierson

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2017, 08:18:44 AM »
And now I know why I have two chicks in this years hatch that are white. At first I thought I got a weird splash, now I am thinking they are resesive white.

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2017, 08:25:58 AM »
And now I know why I have two chicks in this years hatch that are white. At first I thought I got a weird splash, now I am thinking they are resesive white.

Which means both their sire and dam are carriers of recessive white.   Bred together, they will breed true for white.  Bear in mind there is often leakage of a few black or gray feathers in recessive whites.  People who show them routinely pluck the offending feathers, just as breeders of barred birds pluck solid black feathers, and white crested polish breeders pluck black feathers from the crest.   I'm not saying it is right, just that it is commonly done. 
Mike Gilbert
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Janie Vilá

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2017, 11:41:31 AM »
Thank you for this thread. It is incredibly informative to those that really want to learn the genetics behind this awesome breed.

John W Blehm

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2018, 08:03:05 PM »
I hatched about 50 bantam wheaten chicks this week.  If there are two wheaten E-locus genes I believe our wheaten variety should be based on recessive wheaten (ey) and our buff variety on dominant wheaten (eWh).  It isn't uncommon for more than one E-locus gene to be present in a variety and I've seen it with birchen (ER) showing up for many years in the black variety that should be Extended black (E) and other varieties.  In Smyth's paper, linked to below, there is mention of buff Minorcas that were ebc/ey and Rhode Island Reds that were eWh/ey.  I feel we still should try to breed for birds that are pure (homozygous) at the E-locus.
The drawings (from the Smyth paper) show more color in the tail of the ey female and to breed for that we should select for day-old chick down (phenotype) that has markings similar to the corresponding chick drawing. 
With buff we don't want black tails, so that is why I suggest eWh for them.

GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL
...
Quote
Chick downs
...
eWh - The down of dominant wheaten is essentially clear cream in color although small dorsal head spots are common.  An occasional chick, usually a female, may show a faint, broken trace of the dark lateral black stripes.
...
eY - The recessive wheaten down resembles that of the dominant allele (ewh), however, head spots and faint back striping are more common in the eY/eY chick.
...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 11:20:33 AM by John W Blehm »

Alyssa Kim

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2018, 02:53:57 PM »
So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately.   When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing.   But all of us were in that place at one time or another.   The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.
A statement that reigns so true in my life!

I guess I am there now... at the BBS cross road (with my other breeds). Can you please elaborate or point me in the right direction to learn what I am missing?  Thank you

Lots of other good info here to... slowly sinking in and being mulled over.  8)

Cesar Villegas

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2018, 11:27:24 PM »
So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately.   When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing.   But all of us were in that place at one time or another.   The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.
A statement that reigns so true in my life!

I guess I am there now... at the BBS cross road (with my other breeds). Can you please elaborate or point me in the right direction to learn what I am missing?  Thank you

Lots of other good info here to... slowly sinking in and being mulled over.  8)

Well BBS as you know are three different color varieties. Yes, the genetics do compliment each other. But continually crossing them doesnt give you a consistent breeding program. Thats why you see inconsistent shades of blue with BBS crossing, Blacks with purple sheen, blues with no lacing/edging, different body types etc.

Its not a coincident that the best blacks come from an all black flock, best blues come from carefully breeding blues, with sometimes a little black here and there 

Here's my take on BBS from the quote below. (I, Replaced the word "scientist")

"Yeah, yeah, but your Ameraucana breeders were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should."
-Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 02:01:42 PM by Cesar Villegas »

John W Blehm

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2018, 09:19:20 AM »
Well BBS as you know are three different color varieties. Yes, they genetics do compliment each other. But continually crossing them doesnt give you a consistent breeding program. Thats why you see inconsistent shades of blue with BBS crossing, Blacks with purple sheen, blues with no lacing/edging, different body types etc.

Its not a coincident that the best blacks come from an all black flock, best blues come from carefully breeding blues, with sometimes a little black here and there 

Here's my take on BBS from the quote below. (I Replaced the word scientist)

"Yeah, yeah, but your Ameraucana breeders were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."
-Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park

 :) ;) :D ;D 8)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 09:21:00 AM by John W Blehm »

Tailfeathers

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2018, 12:25:09 AM »
Well, I suppose it's time to show my ignorance publicly again.  I've often heard and read that to keep a good Blue and not having them "washout" that one should cross them with a Black.  I definitely could be wrong but I thinking I saw that on here.  From John maybe?

If it's true that Blues shouldn't be crossed to Blacks then what about the WBS?  I've not concerned myself at all with breeding the W to W or the BW to BW.  My breeding program has always been focused on the best 4-6 sisters to the cockbird without any concern as to whether they were W or BW.  It's routine for me to breed a mix of W & BW sisters to a W or BW cockbird knowing that I would continue to get both from the mating.

So am I losing out on something?
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

John W Blehm

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2018, 01:51:48 PM »
Well, I suppose it's time to show my ignorance publicly again.  I've often heard and read that to keep a good Blue and not having them "washout" that one should cross them with a Black.  I definitely could be wrong but I thinking I saw that on here.  From John maybe?

If it's true that Blues shouldn't be crossed to Blacks then what about the WBS?  I've not concerned myself at all with breeding the W to W or the BW to BW.  My breeding program has always been focused on the best 4-6 sisters to the cockbird without any concern as to whether they were W or BW.  It's routine for me to breed a mix of W & BW sisters to a W or BW cockbird knowing that I would continue to get both from the mating.

So am I losing out on something?

I don't think the "washout" cross suggestion came from me.
I've seen "BBS" many times, especially on forums like BYC, and it originally took some time to figure out what it stood for.  There is no BBS variety as some state.  There is black, blue and splash.  To get good "laced" blues experienced breeders breed blue to blue.  That is not to say an outcross isn't ever needed...exceptions to every rule.  ;)  To achieve Standard (as per the APA definition) lacing certain genes are required and without testing we generally guess at genotype by phenotype...what we see.
When is comes to what you call WBS there is a different story.  Even though both groups have a blue phase caused by black and splash being co-dominant I believe you can never achieve "lacing" in the blue areas of a wheaten patterned bird.  The Columbian (co+) gene that is required for lacing also would move colors out of the areas they need to be in for the wheaten pattern...a catch 22.  You could probably get the best "edging" (as close to lacing as possible) by breeding blue wheaten to blue wheaten, but you might as well just cross wheatens and blue wheatens to get both if you want blue wheatens. 
Personally I gave up on blue wheaten quite a while ago.  I don't believe anyone can breed them close enough to the Standard to win more than BV at any show with at least some modest competition.  If you breed them just because you like the color/pattern then enjoy them.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 09:42:19 AM by John W Blehm »

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2018, 05:24:36 PM »

Personally I gave up on blue wheaten quite a while ago.  I don't believe anyone can breed them close enough to the Standard to win more than BV at any show with at least some modest competition.  If you breed them just because you like the color/pattern then enjoy them.

And yet Jerry DeSmidt took a BB on a bantam Blue Wheaten female at the Ohio National a number of years ago, and Russ took BB on a Blue Wheaten cock at our AA National Meet in 2017.   So it can be done. 
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11-13

Tailfeathers

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2018, 12:07:05 AM »
Well, color me Stubborn!  LOL  I like a good challenge.  I know I'm a few years away but I think I'm getting close!  With y'alls help and being so gracious as you have been to answer my questions I may just get there before they plant me.
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

olimoo17

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2018, 03:39:50 AM »
I'm interested in learning more about chick down. Here are four chicks with different phenotypic expression of black including the 'penguin' or 'clown face' pattern to a chick that almost all black to chicks that are mostly cream. Any guesses on genotype?  Keep or cull?

John W Blehm

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Re: Chick Phenotype
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2018, 09:00:46 PM »
...Any guesses on genotype?  Keep or cull?

Keep or cull depends on so much that I can only give suggestions.  Many of the chicks I hatched and kept 30 some years ago would be culls today for me.  Of course, today, no one has to start where I did.  Depending on how many you have to choose from and want to raise will determine just how critical you can be.  Slit the webs or toe punch the ones that look similar with the same marking, so you can compare the a few different chick phenotypes with adult phenotypes. 

The chick in the 1st photo appears to have what is suggested for an E/E (Extended black) chick.  He looks the most like the one I posted in Reply #1 of this topic.  I see the cream/white chin and underside representing the "penguin pattern", the white spot that represents the "clown face" and his shank/leg color isn't too black or too light from my experience.
I can't see the front of chick #2 very well, but it looks more like a brown red (ER, Birchen) with little to no cream in the front and the black in it's shanks goes almost to it's toes. 
The last two look like they have too much cream and their shanks are very light also.

Chick downs
E - Extended black down is black on the dorsal and lateral surfaces, while the ventral surfaces and the wing tips are cream-colored or
white. Homozygotes often have a small white dot on each side of the lower foreface.