Author Topic: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique  (Read 293 times)

Tailfeathers

  • Associate
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« on: July 26, 2017, 05:22:07 AM »
I just had someone ask me for some pics of my birds which moved me to finally get out and take some pics of my BW rooster.  I think it was 2yrs ago that I posted some of my Wheatens for a critique.  So I'd like a HARD critique on this boy and especially from some of the "Old Timers" who've been around a long time and worked with the WBS.  I find it quite helpful to have another couple sets of eyes looking over my birds.

Mike, if you see this, I know you told me 2yrs ago that I need to lighten up the hackles and saddles and wingbows.  I think this is pretty close to the SOP now for the hackles and saddles.  I've got a lot more orange showing that red now.  I know the wingbows need to be a little lighter and more on the orange-ish side but I don't know that I have that in my birds.  In fact, I don't know that I've ever seen a BW with the wingbow shown in the SOP.  Pics #17-20 are that bird from 2yrs ago.  The hackles on this latest bird are a little "cleaner" too with less black striping but I still haven't gotten rid of it all yet.

I like his comb and think the eye color and earlobe color are good but I welcome others opinions.

If you see something with Type, of course, by all means do comment but just remember that this is only a snapshot in time and I think the Type on all my birds is pretty well set now and good.  Gonna try to post enough pics for one to get a good look at everything - including earlobe color, eye color, comb, beak, frontline, topline, etc.  So have at it and donít hold back!

Tried to download these to the Forum but couldn't get the pics small enough without way too much distortion so thanks to Beth I've just learned how to use Photobucket.  Now hoping this works!

http://s58.photobucket.com/user/Tailfeatherz/library/BW%20Rooster

Ok, looks like it's working.  If you do the slide show you'll wanna go full screen.  Otherwise it will crop out parts of the bird.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:01:11 AM by Tailfeathers »
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

Mike Gilbert

  • Lifetime Member
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
    • Red Stag Acres
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 12:04:38 PM »
Very nice type and muffs.  Good eye color for a bird that has the Bl gene.  And I prefer the lighter shade of blue this rooster has.  Nice blocky body and good posture with a slightly sloping backline.  The shape of the beak is just about perfect in my opinion.  But I don't care for the bump that comes up at the back of the comb, as the comb should come back down at the rear;   I don't like the cotton at the base of the tail - it should be a smooth transition between slope of back and rise of tail.    And the blue should have some dark edging, especially in the breast area.  Also there is still some blue striping in the lower hackle, which should be clear.   But overall a very nice bird worthy of breeding.    That would be my honest critique.   Let me just add that I don't have a bantam blue wheaten that is any better, and I have not had the large fowl in this variety for many years now.    BTW, as you have probably already noticed, the Bl gene does lighten the red portions a shade or two in addition to diluting the black.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 12:19:01 PM by Mike Gilbert »
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11,12

Mike Gilbert

  • Lifetime Member
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
    • Red Stag Acres
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 05:31:03 PM »
Nobody else???   I'm sure I must have missed some points, either positive or negative.  And I'm certainly OK with being disagreed with. 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 08:28:45 PM by Mike Gilbert »
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11,12

Tailfeathers

  • Associate
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 06:31:06 AM »
Thanks, Mike!  I looked and looked for the bump you're referring to.  The only thing I can think of is that you are talking about the last "bump" in the center row of bumps?  Is that what you are talking about?  If so, when I look at Pic #5 it looks like it's in perfect alignment with the rest of the center bumps.  I've seen some Ameraucanas that have a bit of a "blade" at the very rear.  Is that preferred over the 3 rows coming to an end together?

You're right about the lacing!  I knew about that from your comments a couple years ago but hadn't thought about it in awhile.  I've been more focused on trying to get good leg color and the lighter hackles, saddles, bows, and bays.  If you zoom in you can see he still has some breast feathers with edging but not like the one 2yrs ago.  That one was darker too.  Really appreciate you pointing that out. Don't wanna lose that so will have to watch for that this year. 

Actually knew about the fluff too and thought I had mentioned that before when talking about the Type but I see now I forgot.  Don't like that at all and thought I had gotten rid of it but he's still got a little.  Had a couple Wheatens 2yrs ago that were really nice except for that and I culled them. 

So how close am I now on the correct color for hackles, saddles, bows, and bays?  Do you have a pic or two of your BW Bantam males?  I'd like to see them.  I was looking back thru some of my old pics and found one of this young cockerel from my first year.  Notice how much lighter his hackles, saddles, bows, and bays are?  I culled him because of the red bleeding thru his flanks, too big of comb, and a lot of red in his tail.  Now I'm noticing he had nice edging too.  Be just my luck if I culled the one bird that could give me the right color for those!

Yes, I've noticed the BW are lighter than the Wheatens in the hackles and saddles.  That's one of the reasons I've been selecting Wheatens with the lightest hackles, saddles, bows, and bays too.  In fact, I've been focusing more on them than the BW's in the past couple of years.  Even in the girls as it seems that the getting them right corresponds to even better looking BWs.  But I'd really like to get a first-hand look at what's the right color on those four traits.  Especially the bows.  So if you can post a couple of pics that would be great!

Thanks again, Mike.  Much appreciated.  And yes, please, anyone else?  Feel completely free to chime in!!
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

Michele Cram

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 22
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 11:01:21 AM »
Thank you for posting your series of pictures.  It is a good learning experience for all of us newbies to be able to read the comments and jump back and forth to the pictures.  Keep it up please!


Tailfeathers

  • Associate
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 05:21:44 AM »
LOL!  I'm the one who came here to be taught and learn.  But hey, if somebody else benefits too that all the better.  Now we just need some more folks to pipe in.  I knew Mike gave him a keen eye but anybody see anything else?  Any other WBS breeders out there that are seeing this?

God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

Patti Jordan

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • JPS Poultry
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 07:49:58 PM »
Just because you asked me, LOL  though I don't really feel qualified to critique your birds as I still consider myself a novice in this variety, well all breeds actually.  I agree with Mike on all points.  Personally I love his type, nice blocky body but transition to tail is choppy due to his tail fluff (tail fluff is a pet peeve of mine).  I'd love to see better lacing in his body color, like Blue Ameraucanas, but I know the WBS variety is still far behind that of BBS.  Love his beard shape and color and shank color looks good.  Personally I'd like to see more of a halo effect in his hackle, darker toward head and lighter toward shoulder, but that's just a personal preference.  I like the fact that I don't see any bleed through in his body color, that's a problem I'm having with my birds.  He's a REALLY Nice bird, and like Mike said definitely worthy of breeding.  I still haven't evaluated my cockerel grow outs yet, though body bleed and hackle striping still plague me.  Nice Job Royce !!!

Tailfeathers

  • Associate
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 02:45:51 AM »
Thank you, Patti.  All good points!!  This is why I do this.  I had pretty good edging on my previous BW but this one is not near as good and I had not notice it.  So, thanks to you and Mike I will now be thinking of this when I look at my next crop of BWs. 

Shank color is ok but I'm almost positive he's heterozygous.  So is my Wheaten as my Red Project turned out yellow-legged birds.  So it's at least another year before I get that problem fixed. 

I'm also glad you mentioned the "halo" affect in the hackles.  I just started paying attention to that last year.  I'm personally not a fan of that and actually was selecting against it when I noticed a couple years ago that the SOP actually calls for it.  You really don't see it at all in the SOP pic but the written description says it's supposed to be there.  If you saw the 3 pics of the previous year's bird he didn't have hardly any of it.  If you look at Pics #6 & #8 and #14 & 15 you'll see he has a little but not near enough.  So, in addition to cleaning up the hackles and getting rid of the striping, I'll have to watch for that too.  Thanks!

One thing I just noticed again in looking for the "halo" that I also forgot to mention in my OP is his leg station.  Nobody has commented on it so I'm assuming it's not too wide.  That's another thing I've been selecting for and I think it goes to a good wide body and Type for both males and females.

And your "halo" comment deserves one more "Thanks!"  It's for something I'm a bit ashamed to admit but will because someone else on here appreciated this post as it was a learning experience for them too so I will.  That comment, and the one about the edging, is a reminder to me that I really NEED to keep going back to the SOP more often.  I get lazy and think I have it all down in my head and then find out I don't.  Going back to the SOP on a more regular basis would help me prevent that.  So I really appreciate you helping me to remember that and maybe that will be a help to others too.
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

Andrew Johnson

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2017, 08:38:27 PM »
This BW is looking fabulous in my eye, though a bit lighter than I prefer. Size and blockiness of his overall stature stands out to me most. And what great beard color! As others have stated, the lacing is not as dark and defined as it should be. That could be from further BW/BW dilution. The hackle striping will continue to plague us all it seems, but I have to say his are pretty clean. Nice job!

Now for one of things in the SOP that has me scratching my head. In the BW it states under Tail: Blue, some orange shafting in sickles. But if you look under Wheaten it tells you to look under Wheaten OEGB and states Tail: Main Tail - black with lustrious green gloss. Lesser Sickles - lustrous, greenish black with reddish cast in shafting. Would these two somewhat be looked upon as the same? If so then wouldn't we also need to look at the BW OEGB description of the tail?

Mike Gilbert

  • Lifetime Member
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
    • Red Stag Acres
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 08:41:18 AM »
Long ago I learned in art class that orange is a mixture of red and yellow.   To me "reddish" means something less than pure red.   So I've never had a problem with the descriptions in the two Standards.   But it would be nice if somehow, some day, they would be reconciled.   But I don't see that happening under the current APA Standard Committee chairman. 
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11,12

Tailfeathers

  • Associate
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
Re: BW Ameraucana Rooster Critique
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 11:46:36 PM »
Andrew, first let me say thank you for your feedback and critique.  If I remember right, Mike likes them a bit darker.  You lighter. And I'm somewhere probably in the middle.  That's one of the really great things about being a breeder, establishing your own strain, and the SOP.  It allows for some slight variances to suit one's own fancy and distinguish your flock from another's.  The edging is definitely something I will continue to be aware of.  Thanks again!!

Secondly, wrt to the tail, I looked at this 6 or 7yrs ago after I mentioned to the at that time Western District Director for the ABC that I was trying to get rid of all the red in the tails and she told me that it was supposed to be their.  I went back to the SOP to verify and that's not how I read it. 

As you stated, the SOP states, "some orange shafting in sickles".  So, if ya go to Page 11 of the SOP and look at "Shafting" it states, "A color characteristics where the shaft of a feather is either lighter or darker than the web., (fig. 48). A Standard requirement in some breeds; a defect in others (pg. 32).

Right above that is the definition for "Shaft":  "The extension of the quill the entire length of the feather to which the barbs are attached."

So when I read that and look at Fig. 48 they tell me that the red we see in the W & BW is NOT "shafting" and therefore should be all Blue.  Wrt the Wheaten, again, the tail should be a lustrous Black with a reddish cast in the "shaft".  Both pics, of the W & BW, show a full-colored tail with NO red. 

From everything I have seen and can see in the written description and the pics, the red that is seen in the tails of the birds we see today come from the barbs coming off the shafts and therefore I don't believe they should be there. 


Mike, I wholeheartedly agree and echo your sentiments about the current APA Standard Committee Chairman.  ESPECIALLY after what just occurred with the Barnevelders.  I won't go into that here in the Ameraucana Forum but I'm sure you'll get much from it when I tell you what occurred over the past year, what they just recently did, and what I was specifically told by that Chairman.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 11:50:10 PM by Tailfeathers »
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)