Garnering Opinions

[Tailfeathers]

So I just wanna throw this out there for my own edification and maybe peace of mind.  Just something I do when I "think so but not sure".

I recently sold two 3mo old Wheaten pullet that had the greenest legs I've ever had on a bird.  As a reminder, a couple of years ago I started having yellow-legged birds showing up.  Never had a green-legged bird though.  Last year I let a couple of W & BW pullets go that were yellow-legged that had fantastic wing and tail color.  Both of these green-legged pullet had terrific wing and tail color.  I actually got rid of them  because I didn't wanna have to even think about breeding them.

So now I'm sort of second-guessing myself and wondering if I'm doing the right thing when my #1 Priority for females is to get the wing and tail color where it should be.  Obviously, because they were green-legged they are carrying the blue genes in their legs somewhere.  Mike has talked about there being two factors - the dermis and epidermis if I remember right.  I found this online https://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/gms10-skin-and-shank-color/ and found it somewhat helpful but a lot of it is over my head. 

Here's why I'm second-guessing myself and trying to get my thoughts together for my upcoming breeding this year.  I've got some full-blood sisters to those green-legged pullets that don't have near as good of wings & tails.  Last year I remember selling a couple of pure yellow-legged pullets with phenomenal wing & tail color.  I think I posted pics of those wings & tails on here.  So I'm thinking out loud here and hoping you'll bear with me and offer what help you can.  With all due respect, please NO guessing or "maybe's".  If you don't know, that's ok.  I'm looking for input from somebody, if anybody, who absolutely knows the answer to:

1) Is it possible there could be some link between the almost full-colored wings & tails and the yellow-leg genes on the yellow and green-legged birds?

Which is the better way to go:

1) Mate the parents that I did last year to get these green-legged pullets and hope for some homozygous blue/slate offspring
2) Mate the father back to those green-legged daughters and hope for some homozygous offspring knowing that I'll probably at best have a 25% chance at obtaining some.

Obviously I'll make a new line and toe-punch accordingly. 

I really wanna get to homozygous leg color but at the same time I really do not wanna lose the wing & tail color I've worked 10yrs to get. 

I'm all ears and feel free to offer anything else if you know I'm missing something.

[Steve Neumann]

It's my understanding that yellow skin is what gives you the green legs.  It is recessive.  If the skin was white they would be blue/slate.  The yellow skin shifts the blue underneath to visual green.   If the parents both have white skin and are carrying the recessive yellow, you have a decent chance of getting some correct colored shanks but they may still be carrying the allele for recessive yellow and produce more yellow skinned.  Your #1 scenario has a chance of giving you offspring pure for white skin.  Your #2 scenario will produce more yellow skin and all birds will be carrying yellow.

[Tailfeathers]

From what I remember on here, from Mike mostly, there are two factors at play.  The dermis and the epidermis.  The funny thing is these birds with the green legs had white skin and, if I recall correctly, so did the birds that had pure yellow legs.

My options now have been cut in half.  I sold the two birds because I got tired of thinking about it.  Apart from the green legs they were really nice looking so now I'm just hoping that I'll wind up with some birds this year as nice but with blue legs.

[Mike Gilbert]

In talking about the dermis (under layer of skin) and the epidermis (outer layer of skin) the info I had provided refers to the leg skin.   Dark dermis combined with yellow epidermis gives the green legs as Steve said.  The yellow is recessive and not sex linked, so roosters with this condition will throw one of this undesirable gene to every offspring he has.   It takes two of these genes, one from the sire and one from the dam, for the yellow to show up in the offspring.   But if just one is present it will continue in a line and show up again down the road when the carriers are mated together.  It's best just to eliminate them from the gene pool and save yourself some time and resources.

[Tailfeathers]

Thanks, Mike.  I appreciate you updating my memory.  And, as you saw, that's what I wound up doing.  After not hearing anything for awhile and wrestling which is the more advantageous way to go, I pretty much decided it was a flip of the coin.  So when a family showed up that wanted to buy a couple of blue egg layers, could not care less about leg color or the SOP, and doesn't plan to breed, it was a relief to sell them and not worry about it anymore.

So, now that you're on here, I gotta question for ya.  Based on what you just said, how is it that I'm getting the green-legged birds and white skin everywhere else?  And, while I don't have any yellow-legged birds now, I think that was also the case with them.

Also, just to confirm in my mind, since I now know that neither of my roosters is homozygous, would you agree that it doesn't make any sense to single mate but rather continue to mate full-blood sisters until such time as I can get a homozygous rooster?   And therefore just cull any yellow or green legged birds and try to keep only the darkest legged males and females?

[Mike Gilbert]

I have personally butchered many, many chickens over the years for the table or freezer.   All I can say is that it is not uncommon to have birds with yellow or willow shanks that also have a pretty white skin elsewhere.  Usually you can see a little evidence of the xanthophyll (yellow pigment) if you look hard enough for it.  As you probably know, the yellow pigment gradually disappears in a laying hen, because egg production removes it.   I guess it probably goes into the yolk?   That's why poultry judges are lenient in "yellow" legged hens and pullets that have been laying if they have pale or even whitish legs.

I think the best way to eliminate the yellow epidermis gene in Ameraucanas, if you have the space for it, is to keep a few of those willow legged birds for use in test mating with your potential breeders.  Of course that means raising up a good number of chicks to the age where shank color can be determined with certainty, and none of them will be keepers, because even the slate legged ones will be carriers.     The other way would be to keep track of which male a group of chicks is out of.  If ANY of them develop willow shanks, you know that rooster is a carrier, along with whichever hen the chick is out of.    When you breed a slate shanked carrier to another slate shanked carrier, the odds are that 25% will have will willow legs, 25% will have slate legs and NOT be carriers, and 50% will have slate legs but be carriers.   So the odds are not that good.    We went through this in developing the bantams 40 - 45 years ago, as some of the outcrosses involved yellow or willow shanked birds that had the proper color pattern.   For example, I once used a Silver Leghorn bantam in the attempt to produce Silver Ameraucana bantams.    And the bantams Jerry Segler received from Ralph Brazelton had willow or yellow shanks.   

Once you have identified a carrier rooster, you could use him to individually test mate females to see which of them are also carriers.   If a female turns out to be "clean" (a non-carrier), all the chicks from that mating will have slate legs.   But about half of those will be carriers, because they will have inherited the yellow epidermis gene from the rooster.  The other half will not be carriers.   In wheatens and blue wheatens, you can often tell which is which by examining the color of the shanks at about 3 to 5 weeks of age.   The carriers will often show  a bit of willow at that age, even though later in life they end up having slate legs.   Just compare the chicks from the same matings at the same age.   I think you will be able to see the difference.

[Tailfeathers]

That's good to hear, edifying, and interesting to know that it's not uncommon to have birds with yellow or willow shanks to have pretty white skin elsewhere.  I wasn't away of that.  I've only butchered a few of my Ameraucanas.  My Welsummers and Buckeyes have pretty yellow skin.

I have heard that the yellow legs can lose their color when hens begin to lay but I can tell you for a fact that it doesn't have to disappear.  I've been working hard for the last several years to improve the yellow-leg color in my Welsummers and Buckeyes and I've now got laying hens that have pretty decent yellow legs.  Their color now is better than what I started with years ago when I realized I was losing it.  If I get a chance I'll try to take a picture of one or two this weekend if you'd like.  And it seems like the best ones don't lose much color at all.  Have no clue why that is.

I really don't know where the color goes.  Maybe the yolk.  I just don't know.  No clue.  Never looked into it.

I'm confused by why you'd say the best way is to keep the willow legged birds?  Ya gotta help me out there.  I'm just not following.  I already know that my W rooster is Hetero from the cross I did to the Buckeyes.  And he's got better leg color than the BW so I'm pretty sure the BW is Hetero two.  The two willow chicks I just sold weren't toe punched because they were hatched between the time I swapped my W out for the BW.  (I decided instead of selling those eggs for $4/dz, I can sell the chicks for $5-10 each)  But I should know for sure whether the BW is Hetero or not from the chicks I get from him if the girls ever start laying again.  So, all that said, if I took the willow pullets and bred them back to their dad and uncle, how would that help me?  I mean I already know that both are carrying the yellow gene.  Are you saying I should be able to tell the Homo blue-legged from the Hetero blue-legged easier that way?

I'm already doing the "other way" as you can see.  From that I know the W is Hetero and will confirm in this next hatch whether the BW is but I'm pretty confident that's the case.  I do understand the odds but I'm willing to hatch out a 100 chicks if necessary in order to get the Homozygous leg color set.

I have thought about exactly what you said in taking my Hetero rooster and single mating him to just a few of my very best W & BW girls.  Even if they are full-blood sisters.  But now you bring up a great point and question...

So, suppose I do that and I hatch out say 25 chicks each.  And all of them turnout to be slate-legged.  That would mean she was Homozygous, right?  But now there is no way to tell which of them is Homo or Hetero for sure?  I do notice the difference at 5-6wks as you mention but is that an absolute?

So, if I'm following you there, the only surefire way of getting to Homo would be to do that single mating and take what girls turn out to be "clean" (non-carrier) and be sure to keep them.  Then get rid of all her chicks, or at least don't bother breeding them, until I can confirm I have a Homo rooster.  Which I suppose I'd do by crossing to my Buckeyes again.  Then once I confirm I have a Homo rooster I can start all over by mating him to only those hens that I've proven to be Homo as well.  Is that right?

If that's correct, then that's the plan I'll run with.  I'll go ahead and breed the BW to what's in the pen with him now just to verify he's Hetero and maybe get some nice pullets to show this Fall and then start my single-mating.

[Mike Gilbert]

So, if I'm following you there, the only surefire way of getting to Homo would be to do that single mating and take what girls turn out to be "clean" (non-carrier) and be sure to keep them.  Then get rid of all her chicks, or at least don't bother breeding them, until I can confirm I have a Homo rooster.  Which I suppose I'd do by crossing to my Buckeyes again.  Then once I confirm I have a Homo rooster I can start all over by mating him to only those hens that I've proven to be Homo as well.  Is that right?

Bingo!

[Tailfeathers]

A BIG thank you!!