Chick phenotypes E vs ER

[Michelle Ogden]

I recently had a hatch of lavender and split chicks. I'm hoping to find a few ER lavenders to keep for a project. Seemed like both of my lavenders were E based as they had distinctly cream bellies. Correct me if I'm wrong but here's my guesses on my black splits:
E homozygous pic 1
E homo or hetero pic 2
ER homo or hetero pic 3

[Mike Gilbert]

Those would be my guesses too, but that's all they are - just guesses.   Chick down coloring can vary quite a bit when ER.

[John W Blehm]

From Backyard Poultry Forum regarding E...

Homozygous chicks often have a small white dot on each side of the lower foreface.

Right or wrong?  Let me know. 

[Michelle Ogden]

Thanks John.
I had read somewhere (maybe the Coop?) that homozygous E typically displays the "clown face" effect. I hadn't realized it could be as small as a dot!
I'm guessing the lavenders will be even harder to distinguish. Has anyone noticed a connection between shank color on Lavs and e-locus? I'm wondering if E is more diluted by the lavender gene than ER and would produce lighter shanks? Just my own personal hypothesis of guessing that the dilution wouldn't affect the ER melanizers as much as the E, since lavender (by definition) is a dilution of black.
I've got another small hatch in lockdown, so I'll have a couple more examples in a day or two...

[John W Blehm]

Thanks John.
I had read somewhere (maybe the Coop?) that homozygous E typically displays the "clown face" effect. I hadn't realized it could be as small as a dot!
I'm guessing the lavenders will be even harder to distinguish. Has anyone noticed a connection between shank color on Lavs and e-locus? I'm wondering if E is more diluted by the lavender gene than ER and would produce lighter shanks? Just my own personal hypothesis of guessing that the dilution wouldn't affect the ER melanizers as much as the E, since lavender (by definition) is a dilution of black.
I've got another small hatch in lockdown, so I'll have a couple more examples in a day or two...

Keep in mind that other than color difference the phenotype of an E/E black chick and E/E lavender chick will be the same, so when you see a white/cream dot on either side of the foreface on the lavender chicks you can assume them to be homozygous/pure.  That is the e-locus we want lavenders to be based on and knowing that should help you in your project.
By definition lavender dilutes black, but in reality it dilutes much more, like red feathers, dilutes shank color and eye color.
Since E based shanks should be darker than E^R and assuming lavender would dilute them equally, a lavender with based on E would have darker shanks than on based on E^R.

[Mike Gilbert]

Here again, I think John is talking about the epidermis of the leg skin, not the dermis.    Originally all Ameraucanas were supposed to have slate to dark slate legs, not black.    At one point in the past we caved on that point. 

[Michelle Ogden]

I've got a lavender from my last hatch I'm thinking is ER. I understand that E is what is preferred for them to be based on, and will typically keep the E based chicks. I just needed one or two ER chicks for a project I've got on the side. Having ER will save a generation of extra work.
I had a lavender cockerel with black legs. I'm assuming you'd consider him E based then? I think the black looks striking with the lavender, but I know the SOP calls for slate...
I'll post a pic of my ER lavender tomorrow.

[John W Blehm]

I had a lavender cockerel with black legs. I'm assuming you'd consider him E based then?

I would, but I would also assume the legs/shanks are a very dark slate rather than black.  Lavender comes in different shades and your cockerel is probably a dark lavender to have such dark shanks. (?)

[Michelle Ogden]

Here's the chick I'm presuming to be ER based. No white on the face at all, and the chest is predominantly lavender (instead of white/cream).

[Michelle Ogden]

John, here's the lavender with particularly dark legs.
In the first pic you can see how dark his legs were, but the second pic is more accurate of his overall color (although it looked more uniform in person). I was told by Beth that he was a chick from you. Unfortunately, my husky got him before I had enforced shock training... Luckily I still have his brother, and another back-up at a friend's.

[Suki]

your cockerel is probably a dark lavender to have such dark shanks. (?)

wouldn't that be because he was bred from a lav-black mating?

Sue Paolini