Brown Reds and Crosses

[Holly Frosch]

Wanted to share some pics as there's not much showing off to do in Iowa this year.  These are all from April/May hatch.Thoughts and comments are much appreciated.

We've done some crossing of our brown reds to black and have kept the resulting pullets with 'leakage'. Cockerels all leaked silver - a whole pen of birchens out there (wasn't expecting the hens to be silver based). I'm a little worried about all that the black may be hiding, but we'll be sure to keep the offspring marked and keep the project limited.

#80.Brown Red x Black pullet. I had wanted to sort out an issue we're having with single comb and she looks suspect. Wondering if we should use her anyhow as she's pretty nice. Maybe sort out comb issues in 2017 ...



#78. Brown Red x Black pullet. A lot of these gals showed more color than I had expected.


#79. Brown Red pullet. Decent lacing without shafting, but looks like she wants to be a bantam. Feisty little thing.


These guys still have some filling out to do. Would like to see more even color through the hackles. I think I need to reevaluate the cockerels in the cull pen as some of them are starting to look better than the 'keepers'.

Cockerel 1. Brown Red cockerel. Not liking the coloring on this guy's chest.



Cockerel 2. Brown Red cockerel. Like his chest lacing and lack of shafting. Have to see what he grows into.

[John W Blehm]

Sounds like you have a handle on what to look for.
I have a brown red cockerel that I plan to cross over a very nice black pullet next year and then breed the offspring together in 2017.  The outcrossing should improve size and a few other things.
I had some pretty nice brown reds, in both bantam and LF, several years ago.

[Lee G]

They all look lovely Holly. And so poised in your pictures! Thanks for sharing. 

[Suki]

I had some pretty nice brown reds, in both bantam and LF, several years ago.

Yes Mike Gilbert posted them on FB.  they were indeed beauties, so it's wonderful that you are going to reinvigorate this variety.  I for one look forward to seeing them.

[Holly Frosch]

Hello everyone! Thought I'd post an update. Unfortunately, we lost our best cockerel and will have to go with one who looks to carry single comb. Still has filling out to do:

He has just a hint of lacing and not much shafting. Wish his color were more even, though. Hope he's fertile - 2nd backup is not much of a looker. Just a bummer that this guy isn't much of an improvement over last year's cock.

The pullets are coming along. We've just started supplemental lighting so hopefully we start seeing the 'L' part of POL. Here are a couple of the Brown Red x Black crosses:




I'm surprised about how much color some of these gals have, but am a bit concerned about the shade as they're so dark. Mahogany?

I was joking in my initial post about the pullet that wanted to be a bantam. Well ... looks like we do indeed have a couple of bantams out there. We don't want another pen to work with, but goodness they're cute!

We don't have a place for these guys either, but there's something about the birchen-looking fellows from the BRxBlack cross that I like (he is Ss ... SS would be quite striking):


I'd like to use this guy, but it just seems we'd create too much of a mess. (He looks pretty rough here - winter in the bachelor pen.)  Anyhow, I can see how folks get sidetracked ...

[John W Blehm]

Hello everyone! Thought I'd post an update. Unfortunately, we lost our best cockerel and will have to go with one who looks to carry single comb. Still has filling out to do:

He has just a hint of lacing and not much shafting. Wish his color were more even, though. Hope he's fertile - 2nd backup is not much of a looker. Just a bummer that this guy isn't much of an improvement over last year's cock.

The pullets are coming along. We've just started supplemental lighting so hopefully we start seeing the 'L' part of POL. Here are a couple of the Brown Red x Black crosses:




I'm surprised about how much color some of these gals have, but am a bit concerned about the shade as they're so dark. Mahogany?

I was joking in my initial post about the pullet that wanted to be a bantam. Well ... looks like we do indeed have a couple of bantams out there. We don't want another pen to work with, but goodness they're cute!

We don't have a place for these guys either, but there's something about the birchen-looking fellows from the BRxBlack cross that I like (he is Ss ... SS would be quite striking):


I'd like to use this guy, but it just seems we'd create too much of a mess. (He looks pretty rough here - winter in the bachelor pen.)  Anyhow, I can see how folks get sidetracked ...

Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE.  Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line. 

[Holly Frosch]

Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE.  Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.

Thanks, John!

I was leery of using them due to the silver ... but we'd be able to see that. Do we need to worry about loss of lacing? Or just bring that back in later, if needed? They're pretty decent birds, so it'd be great to be able to use one of them.

I feel fairly confident that the F1 fellow above is ER-based, but the sire is likely ER/e+. Should probably test mate ... having only two e+ hens to work with might slow us down a bit.

[John W Blehm]

Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE.  Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.

Thanks, John!

I was leery of using them due to the silver ... but we'd be able to see that. Do we need to worry about loss of lacing? Or just bring that back in later, if needed? They're pretty decent birds, so it'd be great to be able to use one of them.

I feel fairly confident that the F1 fellow above is ER-based, but the sire is likely ER/e+. Should probably test mate ... having only two e+ hens to work with might slow us down a bit.

Since silver (S) is sex linked I believe all the F1 pullets are pure for gold and the cockerels are split (S/s+), showing both with silver being dominant.  Mating them should produce some cockerels that are pure for gold (s+/s+) that could be used to increase size.  Use the biggest males over females with the best brown red color/pattern.
Without a silver or gold wing triangle on the males I assume they are ER/ER.  I don't think e+ would be in play here if you were only crossing blacks and brown reds.

[Holly Frosch]

Since silver (S) is sex linked I believe all the F1 pullets are pure for gold and the cockerels are split (S/s+), showing both with silver being dominant.  Mating them should produce some cockerels that are pure for gold (s+/s+) that could be used to increase size.  Use the biggest males over females with the best brown red color/pattern.
Without a silver or gold wing triangle on the males I assume they are ER/ER.  I don't think e+ would be in play here if you were only crossing blacks and brown reds.

I think I had posted about it a while back, but we've had a few unexpecteds crop in our brown reds:


(I'm assuming e+ due to the salmon breast seen on her daughter. A son was indeed duckwing.)

It would be great if there were a shortcut to avoid test mating. I just don't know how confident I am that I can spot ER/e+. Best hunches will be tested first, I guess. 

[John W Blehm]

I think I had posted about it a while back, but we've had a few unexpecteds crop in our brown reds:

I went back and read the old thread to refresh my memory.

[Holly Frosch]

Besides whatever mating you are doing with the brown red cockerel, I suggest crossing the biggest F1 cockerel with the biggest F1 pullet just to breed for SIZE.  Hatch as many as possible and keep a few of the biggest brown red cockerels to then breed over your best pullets/hens to increase size in your line.

This is a little pic-heavy, but I just wanted to post a bit of an update. We did the F1 x F1 cross as suggested and have had some interesting results:
This guy was slated to be culled, but felt inclined to hang onto him despite his horrendous chest. There's just something about the rest of the package that I like. (He looks to be split for a recessive at the e locus, but I'm not sure how that could be.)



No shafting! But Ss+ ... can't have it all, I guess ...


Then this happened ...

This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.

And this ... 


Still have hopes for a few that are feathering in and some of the females look promising. It was a very informative cross - it's neat to see all that can lurk under black! Mike warned of this, so I cannot say we went in blindly. Lol.
We actually are trying for an accepted variety. Those out of our Brown Reds are much more consistent and are coming along nicely. Can't wait to see how they grow out! Might have to test mate some of them for that recessive white at some point, though. 




Couldn't get very good pics of the girls. They're washed out a bit by the flash, but here are a couple:


John - how is your Brown Red project coming?

[John W Blehm]

Then this happened ...

This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
John - how is your Brown Red project coming?

From what I see he has REAL lacing and I would think he would be a valuable bird for someone working on LF laced blues.

I'm a year behind you with my LF brown red/black outcross project.  I crossed a couple undersized cockerels over a nice black pullet.  I believe all the pullets are pure black, but would to catch and study them to know for sure.  The cockerels all leak silver/gold.  I'm inclined to believe my LF blacks may be more silver based than gold from the silver that I see.  One cockerel has more than the leakage expected from an E^R/E, and I believe he in E^R/E^R so that indicates there is still E^R floating around in my LF blacks.  The good news is due to silver/gold being sex linked I know all the pullets are gold.  By breeding these siblings among themselves and hatching many chicks I should, hopefully, maybe get some nice brown reds next year.

[Mike Gilbert]

I would be tempted to use that Ss cockerel over the best colored brown red pullets.   That kind of lacing without shafting is difficult to achieve.   The cross would give you half brown red and half birchen pullets.   If you wanted to branch out into birchens you could put this male back over  his birchen daughters.   That would give you about half SS males.    Once birchen is established you would always have a nice outcross by mating the males of one color over the females of the other color to get fresh blood into the male's color/line.   Just a thought.

[Holly Frosch]

Then this happened ...

This fellow had spectacular 'shafting' as a youngster and decided to keep him around a bit to see what he'd turn out like. Another male shows spangling in the upper chest ... but in red.
John - how is your Brown Red project coming?

From what I see he has REAL lacing and I would think he would be a valuable bird for someone working on LF laced blues.

We do have a few blues that are somewhat related that we may try. They're mutts, but maybe still worth a go. Has anyone else gotten lacing out of Brown Red x Black? I'm wondering if something along the lines of Co with Db are responsible for some of the shafting issues seen in our Brown Reds. Perhaps melanotic added from the Black led to this guy. (We did have a duckwing cockerel crop up last year out of our Brown Reds that was well-laced.) Hetero for lacing somewhere, he has rather clean lacing on his chest - turning to spangling lower down and toward his back. Still has lacing a bit past his wings, but loses it toward his tail - reminds me of the same areas mentioned as lacking color in black gold development.

BTW, I believe this is him as a day-old (center):

His head was quite light.

The cockerels all leak silver/gold.  I'm inclined to believe my LF blacks may be more silver based than gold from the silver that I see.  One cockerel has more than the leakage expected from an E^R/E, and I believe he in E^R/E^R so that indicates there is still E^R floating around in my LF blacks.  The good news is due to silver/gold being sex linked I know all the pullets are gold.  By breeding this siblings among themselves and hatching many chicks I should, hopefully, maybe get some nice brown reds next year.

All of the males from our cross to Black had tons of leakage, but none had chest lacing. Many of our females were leaky as well. Those that were jet black I chalked up to being E/e+ as we were working with a split male and I would suppose ER/e+ would be quite leaky (also chick down seemed to indicate E). But perhaps we were working with ER Black as well.

Will be neat to see what comes up for you next year!

I would be tempted to use that Ss cockerel over the best colored brown red pullets.   That kind of lacing without shafting is difficult to achieve.   The cross would give you half brown red and half birchen pullets.   If you wanted to branch out into birchens you could put this male back over  his birchen daughters.   That would give you about half SS males.    Once birchen is established you would always have a nice outcross by mating the males of one color over the females of the other color to get fresh blood into the male's color/line.   Just a thought.

Thanks for the input, Mike. I am tempted, too - especially since it appears to be a bust for decent Brown Red males from that cross. Their type is really nice, but chest lacing is way off. I think we'll keep the best for a backup, but wait and see how this male turns out and use him. Would autosomal red be a concern in working toward Birchen? So far he has no leakage in the wing bow ...

We've come up with a few Brown Reds with little to no shafting, but they look to be over-melanized and are not as clean as the Ss fellow. We've lost some ground as far as evenness of color - the lower hackles are too light. Some are not as bad as others, but they aren't nearly as nice as the original birds from you. I hope we are maintaining type okay. The birds seem pretty solid in this regard and I may have taken this for granted had we not started working with Lavenders. Ha!

[Mike Gilbert]

To tell the truth, I don't know if Ap (autosomal red) has snuck into the line since my outcross to a black.   Originally when I was working on both brown red and birchen, it did not show up.   There is only one way to find out, and you have the birds to do the testing.  Let us know what you find out, okay?