buff Ameraucanas and white feathers

[Lee M Hethcox]

I have some buffs from John's lines. Otherwise the only buffs I've seen are in pictures, so I don't have a lot of experience with their range of color.  The hens are a lot less gold than the rooster-I assume that's normal. I kept the 5 hens with the best color and a rooster. But as the hens aged (they came into lay in December) their color is only slightly more deep than the one wheaten hen I have. Also, they have varying amounts of white in their feathers. With the next generation, should I just select for the best color? And then get a rooster from another line to breed for the next generation?
I also had some buff/white Am crosses. I kept track of which was which to compare colors. By the time they were grown, I couldn't tell the buffs from the buff/white crosses. I sold those since I didn't want confusion.
So is white not totally recessive, but does it crop up in partial ways, like an edge on a feather for instance?

[John W Blehm]

So is white not totally recessive, but does it crop up in partial ways, like an edge on a feather for instance?

The white may have also carried dominant white and passed it.  Some of my buff Chanteclers have some black feathers and some have some white feathers.  I assume those that show some white carry dominant white that make the otherwise black feather white.

[Lee G]

By the time they were grown, I couldn't tell the buffs from the buff/white crosses. I sold those since I didn't want confusion.

Hi Lee, (great name, btw  ) one of the simplest methods for tracking pedigree in my experience is by toe punching. Truthfully, I was squeamish the first time I tried it, but soon discovered it's super easy to do. And once you get the hang of it, there's no going back. I really believe knowing who is who, and whom came from whom, of utmost importance for breeding and (eventually) fundamental to moving a flock forward. 

[John W Blehm]

Lee, (great name, btw  )

I was getting my Lees mixed up earlier.  Mike said our Michigan Fowl Fest would be closer than his Wisconsin show...I figured he was wrong, until I realized Lee wasn't Lee. 

[Lee M Hethcox]

Hmm..I'm the Lee in Virginia with all of 3 buff Chanteclers (from Bob Rennolet) and 7 buff Ams (from John Blehm). Though I'm really wondering if I can keep all these buffs straight. I do have a toe punch and I may have to actually use it. (I also wanted to try brown reds but can't find any chicks to buy..are they a really uncommon color?)
So there is dominant white AND non dominant white?
Lee

[Mike Gilbert]

Hmm..I'm the Lee in Virginia with all of 3 buff Chanteclers (from Bob Rennolet) and 7 buff Ams (from John Blehm). Though I'm really wondering if I can keep all these buffs straight. I do have a toe punch and I may have to actually use it. (I also wanted to try brown reds but can't find any chicks to buy..are they a really uncommon color?)
So there is dominant white AND non dominant white?
Lee

Yes, there is dominant white and recessive white, and they can be inherited independently.   That means a single bird can have both or either or neither.   Dominant white covers black quite well, but not red.   It is what is used to make red pyles.    Recessive white (2 copies) does a pretty good job of covering both black and red (eumelanin pigment and pheomelanin pigment).    Sorry to say I cannot promise any one brown red LF this year until I see what hatches since I'm getting a late start with them.   But feel free to check with me this fall.

[John W Blehm]

With the next generation, should I just select for the best color? And then get a rooster from another line to breed for the next generation?

Keep selecting for the best color.  Even as day-old chicks you can generally tell which will be the best buffs.  Those with buff down all over will be best.  Those with buff bodies, but lighter heads won't be as nice.  Until you get all good ones you have to keep using what you have.
I think too often people want to bring in new blood or another line as you say.  I suggest keeping at least two breeding pens for every variety you have to develop your own other line.  If they are pens A and B, use the cockerels from A over B and those from B over A.  This way you won't be breeding siblings or even parent with offspring. 
With my bantam buffs I have 4 pens and wish I had tried going with that many years ago.
I didn't accept many orders for LF buffs this year so I could keep more chicks for myself and try to offer more and better buffs next year.  I've outcrossed with wheaten a couple/few years ago to make improvements.  Years ago I did an outcross with black and gave up on it.  I'm doing it again this year.  The blacks just have so much going for them that the buffs could benefit from.  Of course this outcross isn't a quick fix.
Note the 4 chicks (hatched today) in the photo are from the same buff cock over my best black hen.  Three appear whitish while one is mostly black.  They all show some red/buff on their faces and have dark shanks.  It appears the buff cock carries one copy of dominant white.

[Gina Neta]

Ok John - if those 'whitish' chicks stay white..... YOU KNOW WHO will gladly take them off your hands!!  The white sports (pullets) I wrestled from you last fall are absolute favorites around here.  Ridiculously curious and constantly underfoot - visitors love them and invariably ask about THEM as opposed to all the other birds running around out here.  Why?  Because they put themselves front and center, always!  One is bigger and better than the other, but we like them both so much (dubbed Lena and Luna by a child guest) and they are great layers.  It is possible you will see one in a show sometime...... 

[John W Blehm]

Gina,

These ones won't feather in as white as the two you have that are recessive white.  They should let some of the buff show through.
Mike said he would like some of the whites like you have, so I've been saving them when they show up.  I think I have 3 so far to bring over in June.

[Gina Neta]

Ok.  I would love a couple more so if you end up with extra I can arm wrestle Mike for them......at least now you know you've got happy homes for them.  Thank you!!

[Mike Gilbert]

Gina, if there is more than one cockerel I'll be happy to share....    Otherwise, the Thompson family from Baldwin, Wisconsin, has some nice whites as well.   I believe they will be at our show too.

[Gina Neta]

Terrific!  I think I know who you mean - Scott Thompson??  I will contact him to see what he might have.  I may need to beg Jim to bring them back.  Sadly, I will not be able to attend your June show.  Nephew graduation party same day in Grand Blanc, MI.  Very disappointing!!!  Thanks Mike!!

[Mike Gilbert]

Yes, the Scott Thompson family.    Let me know if they have something for you.   Their whites are also sports out of blacks I believe. 

[Lee G]

Hmm. I’m the Lee who wishes she lived in Virginia some days! Lol Michigan would be a bit more scenic of a route for sure, but certainly doable. 


Question regarding recessive white….if a black bird was thought to be carrying recessive white, would there be any tell tale signs in their plumage? Because I have a black hen that has a single primary feather on her right wing tipped in white. Also have a second black hen with a smidgen of white on one tail feather. I know for a fact recessive white runs in one of the strains I’m working with, and wondered if these birds might possibly carry it? 

[Mike Gilbert]

The only way to know for sure is to test mate them.   White feather tips in wings and tails are common in black birds, and sometimes is caused by damage to the feather follicle from an injury - but not nearly always.  I had that problem in my black and my blue bantams and they never threw whites.