Foundation Stock

[Lee G]

How long should a person hang onto their foundation stock?

I know this probably isn’t an easy question to answer as there are many factors involved, coop space usually being the biggest one…I guess I’m looking more for a general idea, and personal experiences. 

I fear I may have gotten rid of some birds I shouldn’t have a few years back, and don’t want to make the same mistake twice.

Thanks!

[Harry Shaffer]

I know room is a priority, but don;t dump all you good foundation birds.  I will keep them for 3 years if possible.  I sold all my blacks when my lavenders were of good quality.  Then all my quality lavenders were killed by a fox.  I still had some left that were just average and bred them the next year and unfortunately I put the best under a hen only to have a weasel wipe them out.  I have to keep the other chicks and hatch  only a few then. 
Well tried to buy some blacks and got nothing worth keeping.  One male had white ear lobes.  Raised some chicks from some one and those blacks had either yellow eyes grown up or like the other fellow on here had irregular eye pupils was affraid they may have had Merck's or a heredity issues.  So two years raising and breeding them was a waist other than I did not put them over my lavenders which was a smart move on my part.  I bought more chicks some from my own lavender breeding from someone that had some of my blood.  They were in need of a lot of work with some serious comb issues.  Used a splash over my lavenders which were;t related and the bird clicked and now have some real nice blues split lavender to breed now.
Just bought a black male that looked really good but then was told watch out for mutiple spurs now I have to test mate that bird for two years to make sure they are double blue egg genes and double muff and beards.  If not double muff and beard with the first hatch of the chicks that bird will go to the auction as an EE.  So that is how you can loose many years breeding for basically minimal if any improvements.  I do have some nice lavenders now to use but I am many years behind where I would have been. 
Oh, forgot to say that I am lucky because i did give my neighbor some of my birds from the originals and she is going to give me some eggs for me and sell me some if I need them for any orders.

[Lee G]

Good advice. Thanks Harry. I will try and hold onto my foundation birds for as long as I can, and three years bare minimum. Having a road back (or a way to start fresh if necessary) is only good sense after all. 


And I can totally relate to feeling like I wasted a few breeding seasons with minimum or no flock improvement. In fact, I think I may have backslid badly if not for toe punching and good record keeping. Instead thanks to those tools, I was able to identify all the defective offspring and their parents, and remove them permanently from my breeding pool. One big silver lining is I learned at lot of what NOT to do! lol  I’m sure there’s more to come as well. Hopefully I won’t need to repeat too many of those lessons too often…

Funny enough, the birds I wished I kept are ones I gave to a neighbour of ours that just wanted coloured egg layers and a pretty rooster. Unfortunately bad luck struck, and they all were killed by coyotes while out free ranging last fall, or I’d definitely be buying them back. Ah well, such is life…and why it always pays to have a safeguard in place. And good fences too! 

[John W Blehm]

I'm probably a bad boy when it comes to holding on to older birds.  Seldom do I keep birds over a year old and with many varieties I start over with pullets and cockerels each breeding season.  The exceptions are keeping maybe an exceptional bird or more from some varieties and there have been times when an individual is used for maybe three years or more. 
Then again that may have nothing to do with what you call "foundation stock".

[Lee G]

By foundation stock, I mean proven breeders used to found a population. Be it a pair, a trio, etc. So I believe we are on the same page John. 

I guess it all depends on what ones goals are. Longevity is an important trait (to me) and one I’d like to perpetuate in my flock. So I think I’ll plan to breed from older, proven birds as long as they remain healthy and productive, and continue to produce good offspring. My oldest hen will be 5 this spring. She is the flock matriarch, as well as one of the first Ameraucanas I ever hatched. She’s far from perfect looking (S comb, short back, undersize) but more than makes up for those short comings with her exceptional vitality and longevity. She’s also an experienced broody, and a good mother. I’m eagerly collecting her eggs to set next week! 

[Linda Ferguson]

Lee - I also keep my original birds(foundation stock).  They're from breeders that know a lot more about this than I do.  Last year I brought in a different rooster and when his offspring grew out I see I need to cull them all.  Fortunately I had hatched a couple roosters from my original birds and am using them this year with my original hens which are now two and three year old.  I plan to keep the best ones as long as I have chickens.  Linda   

[Suki]

Just bought a black male that looked really good but then was told watch out for multiple spurs now I have to

Hi Harry, I don't really agree with that method.  I think the thing is to use him straight off as a true outcross to your flock and so that will diminish the outcross issue substantially.  From there after the new chicks are hatched I would watch for the spur issue and take it on a
case by case method.    Now as for using him again?  That I am not sure of, and would have to ponder, but I would definitely use him now.

[Mike Gilbert]

Harry, would I be correct if I guessed that your black male that may throw extra spurs on his cockerel offspring is descended from Tom Kernan's stock?  I could be dead wrong, but you are both in the east and Tom raises both Black Sumatras and Black Ameraucanas.   And the male that won best of show at the last APA national did not look to be from Meredith, Blehm, or Smith lines.    He was purchased from Tom not long before the APA national.  The fact that you are also concerned about muffs and egg color adds some credence to my theory. 

[Tailfeathers]

Personally, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule to follow.  Pretty sure I've never kept a bird 3yrs up to this point.  If I did it was a hen.  However, I've finally got 2 W and 2 BW males that I think are pretty decent so I'm gonna use them for at least 2-3yrs - unless I happen to get another male that is really outstanding.  But there is NO way I'm keeping 75 cockerels and raising them up this year like I did last. 

I know Kenny Troiano has written a couple of times in the PP about holding onto and breeding the dickens outta a bird that is "prepotent" in particular areas.  I haven't been able to figure out with any specificity exactly any particular traits that are prepotent in any of my birds but I've got about four specific areas I'm wanting to improve on now and if I can identify that in a particular bird, then I definitely would keep it. 

I think my main problem now is that I am breeding too many birds.  For example, one of my pens now has 10 full blood sisters being covered by one male.  Not all of those sisters are going to possess and pass on the same genes.  So I'm hoping that as I move forward I can select even more carefully even amongst those and by doing so reduce the number of birds I have to breed in the future. 

For example, I have definitely noticed that the more porous eggs do not do as well as those that are not.  But I haven't been able to determine yet whether that's totally because of the porous egg shells or just not being fertile.  I do know that I see more bloodrings in the porous shells but I also tossed a lot last night that weren't fertile.  Why weren't they fertile?  Could very well be that it's because I have too many gals in with the one rooster.

Unfortunately, because of what happened while I was away a few years ago, and basically having to start all over with figuring out who's who in my flock, it may well take me a few years to figure it all out again.  I am thinking though that the porous eggshell problem will rectify itself.  I mean, if they aren't hatching and only the good shells do, it's gonna fix itself.

Then there is also the size of the egg, the color of the egg, and the productivity of the hen to consider.  And that's just dealing with the egg, not to mention Type and Color.

I would suggest that by running at least 2 different lines, one should not have to go backwards and start over.  I've not gotten down to 2 lines yet.  The least I've been able to attain was four.  And perhaps because I've always had multiple lines, I've always been able to move forward without going backwards.  Meaning, I've never had to go back to a cockbird or a hen because I've lost something.  Each year I've managed to make some improvement in the overall presence of my flock.

Even a few years ago when I had to start over.  Due to my absence and none of the eggs I had in the incubator being toe-punched, I started over by taking my 2 best W males (didn't have any BWs that I wanted to use) and mated them to all my females.  Since I was basically starting over and using some pullets without an ID, I just numbered the first W male's eggs as 1-3, and then the second W male's as 3-6 based solely on the egg color.  #1 being the best blue and #3 being white. 

That gave me a place to start.  Then the following year I started selecting on Type & Color again.  This year I'm breeding 2 W and 2 BW males with 1 of the W & 1 of the BW being from the same line.  And I've got 4 lines of females with some overlap as well.  Next year I am hoping to get back down to 4 lines and the year after than hopefully I'll be down to 2.

One other thing I would say is that I, personally, would never get rid of a bird just because it's not a double muff.  Heck, if I had an outstanding bird that was clean-faced, I'd breed it.  Take that clean-faced bird and breed it to a single or double-muff/bearded bird and you're gonna get muffed/bearded birds.  To me that's such an easy fix that I don't see any reason to get rid of it if it's exceptional in other areas.

[Lee G]

Great insight here, thank you for sharing everyone. 

I have the same problem Royce. Too many birds I'd like to pair up, and it's only getting harder to choose. And with summer being so fleeting here, I feel I need to make good choices or the whole year is a crapshoot and a waste....well, not really. It's always a learning experience at least.  But it's sure nice to get a few decent prospects out of the pile too!

[Harry Shaffer]

Mike,  I will not publicly post where I get birds I am not happy with and let me tell you I have bought from several sources that I have culled.  So far the black male I have described had thrown me all muffs and beards and pea combs bred to an Orpington so he has past the test but I still have a few eggs to hatch.  I did get one of John BLehm;s black breeder male this year from his breeder flock and I am very happy with him.  He is very typy and large and will work out just fine.  Have him in with two of my old breeder hens which should produce some chicks for me to keep.  No one produces 100% top quality birds in every hatch so this is part of the hobby to be expected.