Author Topic: Meet Policy Update  (Read 2310 times)

Kyle Porosky

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2025, 08:49:14 pm »
.  It's time for an overhaul of the system, and that is what I hope happens.

You want an overhaul? I got a lot of ideas, probably not great ideas, but a lot of them

(These are all going to be separate ideas, not intended to be all put in place)

1) Points only to the best of breed and best of variety. If you’re not 1st, you’re last.
-minimum 3 exhibitors for points in breed and/or variety
-2 levels of “master” one for breed at a higher value and one for variety at the current value
-current status to be grandfathered in

2) One meet allowed per state, per year. If Wisconsin has the coulee show as the state meet, no other show in the state of Wisconsin will be awarded points.
-no exceptions - if the national meet is in your state, you will not have a state meet

3) Free for fall - no changes to the current policy

4) Make the meets mean something. Whoever requests the meet, has to promote the meet, put up a table/donate awards towards ameraucanas/write a short snippet of why people should attend the show in the newsletter

5) Delete the whole points system. Dare to be different. If there was no point system in this club I can guarantee I personally would still be a member. I can’t speak for everyone, but the words “master breeder/exhibitor” are just more meaningless titles. I go to work and the people with the highest titles are typically the dumbest.
The club isn’t about points, just throw them out the window. The APA, ABA and most other clubs give points. Shouldn’t mean we need to as well.

If you need more dumb ideas, feel free to ask. My brain runs at a million miles a minute. 😂



Mike Gilbert

  • Lifetime Member
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2025, 10:26:36 pm »
Thanks for your ideas, Kyle.  I like someone who thinks "outside the box" so to speak.  I will not be able to respond again until at least Monday, as we are headed to the show at Hutchinson, Minnesota, tomorrow morning.  It's one of my favorite venues, but there is no Ameraucana OR Chantecler meet this year.
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11-13

Mindy Waters

  • Associate
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2025, 12:57:41 pm »
In my other breed club, any member can receive points from any show they attend. Single or double, it doesn't matter. Meet or not, it doesn't matter. You get your points if you submit a report. We do have a minimum bird and exhibitor number for meets, technically, but they have never been an unmoveable cement block for anyone to request a meet or have their points counted. We also give points for winning the class and advancing further in the show rankings because those things matter too to many members. Club rosettes and awards are only given out only at sanctioned meets, but they are nice rosettes that more expensive for the club to provide than a flat ribbon.

For breed and club promotion, I think we should find ways to encourage members to attend any and all shows they are able to, and to show their best birds (we all start somewhere), as we know it's not easy, especially in areas where shows are few and far between like here out West. The closest shows to me personally are a 3-6 hour drive one direction and there are only a handful a year. None of those options are large shows. A few are double shows, so that helps give more opportunities to have birds looked at by different judges, which can be more helpful to my breeding program. I personally feel that if members are making the effort to attend shows, even small ones or double shows, there's no good reason they shouldn't get club points. Even if there was little breed competition at a particular show, it doesn't mean that BB bird wasn't exceptional. Assuming birds are "mediocre" because there is less competition is problematic and discouraging, as many times even with little Ameraucana presence at a show, the Ameraucanas winning BB go on to win the class or beyond.

The APA points policy allows that even if the class doesn't have the 25 birds to qualify for class Champion points, if a bird places higher, like Show Champion or Champion LF, they still get the class points. The Alliance only gives points within the breed itself- a bird is only earning points for every bird they place over. If there's only 2 birds shown, that's only 2 points. Who cares? I don't really see the point in making things more complicated for those requesting meets, attending shows, and for the board members keeping track of it all.

I agree that we need to clarify that the POST MARKED entry deadline is what counts for the newsletter. And that those requesting meets need to fill out and turn in the meet report/s. I don't see any of the rest as being helpful.
That's my two cents, for whatever they are worth.

Laurie Ashley - Selah Farms

  • Lifetime Member
  • Associate
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2025, 12:01:46 am »
.  It's time for an overhaul of the system, and that is what I hope happens.
1) Points only to the best of breed and best of variety. If you’re not 1st, you’re last.
-minimum 3 exhibitors for points in breed and/or variety 

-2 levels of “master” one for breed at a higher value and one for variety at the current value
-current status to be grandfathered in

2) One meet allowed per state, per year. If Wisconsin has the coulee show as the state meet, no other show in the state of Wisconsin will be awarded points.
-no exceptions - if the national meet is in your state, you will not have a state meet

3) Free for fall - no changes to the current policy

4) Make the meets mean something. Whoever requests the meet, has to promote the meet, put up a table/donate awards towards ameraucanas/write a short snippet of why people should attend the show in the newsletter

5) Delete the whole points system. Dare to be different. If there was no point system in this club I can guarantee I personally would still be a member. I can’t speak for everyone, but the words “master breeder/exhibitor” are just more meaningless titles. I go to work and the people with the highest titles are typically the dumbest.
The club isn’t about points, just throw them out the window. The APA, ABA and most other clubs give points. Shouldn’t mean we need to as well.

I see a number of workable ideas here. 
1.  In agreement here.  However, it will be tough to find 3 other exhibitors for several of our recognized varieties (Silvers, whites, buffs... even brown red sometimes). Or did you mean 3 exhibitors total, across all Ameraucana shown?  This can open up coordination between members to work together to make sure 3 people show up with Ameraucana.  Can do.

2.  In agreement here as well.  One meet per state works well for us as we already travel for a large majority of our chosen shows.  However it can make it tough to have meaningful meets with sufficient exhibitors when some members do all the traveling to support meets, and others can't or wont.  Still a workable idea. 

3.  I certainly hope they don't cancel already set meets this fall :-\ 

4.  In agreement.  Already doing it :) I added up how much I spent on table fees last year.. oiy.  Wasn't pretty.   :o :-[   But if I only have to worry about my states meet, then that saves me a large burden right there :) Workable idea!

5.  OK.  I can see your point on this.  I have already come to my own conclusion here that "breed club points" are going to become nonexistent to me now.

Russ Blair

  • Administrator
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2025, 06:56:47 am »
Kyle you just made my morning, I thought I would check in before work and this is what I read

“I go to work and the people with the highest titles are typically the dumbest.“


That my friend is the truest statement I have seen yet 🤣🤣🤣🤣
S.E. Michigan

Beth Curran

  • Lifetime Member
  • College
  • *****
  • Posts: 485
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2025, 02:16:34 pm »
Kyle you just made my morning, I thought I would check in before work and this is what I read

“I go to work and the people with the highest titles are typically the dumbest.“


That my friend is the truest statement I have seen yet 🤣🤣🤣🤣

This made my day as well! I encounter this a lot, and I believe what happens is someone has an idiot that they know is an idiot but for some reason or another can't get rid of him, so they make him the Director of Nothing Important, stick him somewhere he can't do too much harm, tell everyone how great he is, and pray some headhunter steals him.

I've been following this thread and have been trying to organize my scattered thoughts into something that makes sense - will post more later.
Beth Curran

Beth Curran

  • Lifetime Member
  • College
  • *****
  • Posts: 485
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2025, 10:55:10 pm »
Looks like I can still kill a thread! ;)

I've been reading and trying to keep up, but this thread has been moving quicker than my brain so I am just now getting around to commenting.

I haven't done any showing in quite a while. I believe the last time I took birds to a show was the first or second AA national in Indiana. I still have a few out here and even hatched a handful last spring just to try to keep them going, but don't see myself showing again any time soon, so these are just my general thoughts - I don't really have skin in the game.

First off, I like lots of meets, providing the people calling them attend. When I first became interested in this breed, the first thing I did was check the website and look for activities near me and I was very discouraged to find absolutely nothing less than 12 hours away. Once I joined and discovered all I needed to do to have a meet closer was to request it myself, I did every chance I got. There weren't a lot of Ameraucanas in NC back then and in the beginning mine were often the only ones at a show. But there were other Ameraucana folks around. I met Don Cash and John Marshall who both had a great deal of experience in the hobby, and through them I met others. We showed our birds and people started asking about them and where they could get some and over time we started seeing bigger classes, more people raising Ameraucanas, and more club members from the Carolinas. I credit much of that growth to Don and it would have certainly been possible without meets or even a club, but I firmly believe calling those early meets helped by giving us an official presence in a region where we had not previously been visible. I'm glad the ability to use that valuable tool was not restricted.

However, just as I believe that tool should not be restricted, I believe just as strongly that it should not be abused. If I had called those meets and not shown up, anyone who made the trip to the show in the hope of meeting other Ameraucana enthusiasts, learning about the birds, club, etc. would have been left with a very bad impression. I believe that anyone who is willing to condition, groom, load, and haul birds across the state (or several states), spend money they often can't afford on gas, lodging, in my case usually a rental car (telling the agent with a straight face I won't have any "pets" in it), entry fees, etc. for non-cash awards deserves to have a meet for each time they do it. But anyone who calls a meet and does not show up had better have a darn good reason (think calling out sick at Walmart on Black Friday) or face suspension from calling meets for a period of time that would increase substantially for repeat offenders. But only penalize the offenders. Those who have been calling meets and showing up, doing what they are supposed to all along should be allowed to continue without infringement.

The "expectation " of 3 or more people showing: in the early days I'd have fallen short of 3 people even if you counted the EEs that were DQ'd. If I hadn't called meets knowing I'd be the only one there, we would never have worked up to class sizes with actual competition. Call them and they will come. Eventually.

Show secretaries that don't submit reports make my hair hurt. It's maddening, especially when you finally receive it and it's incorrect (which, in my experience, is at least half the time). One member had the same issue with the same show club, same secretary, spring and fall shows, year after year. The only option was to refuse meets, which would have hurt our member, who didn't deserve it, and had very little impact on the show club. In order to save our Director of Meets' sanity without penalizing a member for something that wasn't their fault, we came up with a backup plan where the member does their own report and, if the show secretary doesn't submit one within 30 days, we use the member's. In the interest of avoiding any appearance of impropriety, we ask that the member get a signature from someone else to verify the report. (Show secretary, another member, etc.) I haven't read the current policy but being part of the original discussion, I know the spirit of the rule had less to do with *who* signed it and more to do with *someone* verifying it (obviously not your spouse, kid, etc.). This wasn't done to make it harder for the exhibitors, it was done to give them a back up plan when dealing with an impossible show club that was often the only option within driving distance.

I can't add much with regard to points as by the time we started doing that I wasn't showing much, but as  far as being present at a show vs sending birds with someone else, I honestly don't see a problem. If a bird is better than mine it deserves to win over mine. I've talked people into sending birds to a show they couldn't attend just to get enough entries to make it count, and they ended up beating me. I thought it was funny then and it still makes me laugh.  Besides,  the hard work is done well before the show. If you bred it, raised it, conditioned it, groomed it, taught it to be handled, did the testing, paid the entry fees, etc. what does it matter if someone else stuck it in the show cage? Now, that's just my opinion and, as I said, I really don't have skin in the game, but before implementing a new rule, I suggest considering it from all angles. For example, say Joe can't attend a show but he sends his birds with his friend. If we decide that Joe can't earn points/awards if his birds do well, what happens if Joe's birds don't do so well? If Joe can't earn points if he wins because he isn't there, it isn't fair for someone else to earn points from beating a guy who isn't there, so the winner's points would have to be calculated as if Joe's birds weren't there (and maybe he sent a bunch). Resulting in fewer points for the other competitors and additional headaches for the Director of Meets. And what if Joe is that third guy needed to have a meet? Does he count then? I personally think it's a slippery slope.

As far as the website/forum, I've always found both easy to navigate and the search feature on our forum works far better than other sites I use - it's gotten me a bit spoiled. My only complaint is with the pictures. I don't think I've ever been able to upload a picture to the forum, I've always had to upload them to a 3rd party site and link them. I haven't tried in a long time, maybe it's better now.

Did I miss anything?
Beth Curran

Russ Blair

  • Administrator
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2025, 12:54:23 pm »
Beth you didn’t kill the topic, we all just waited to hear your words of wisdom 😉.

A lot of what you said has merit, and I will strongly encourage every board member to review all of the suggestions posted in this discussion. I hope to begin the conversation about our meet policy with our current board of directors as soon as we hash out our 2026 National Meet Bids.

S.E. Michigan

Dylan Reverend

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2025, 09:06:43 pm »
It seems i may be way late to the party, and a decision might of already been made....... butttttt Im new and was just reading through some of the threads and familiarizing myself with the club....

While going through this proposed update i had a thought.......

instead of only counting the first shows points and requiring at least 3 exhibitors... would you support a "solo exhibitor and two exhibitors cap on points" call it the "dan karasek provision" since he was used as an example lol.... instead of requiring there to be more than 1 exhibitor just cap the number of points they can earn PER VARIETY when showing against themselves... increase the cap when there are 2 exhibitors... no cap if 3 or more exhibitors are present. My thoughts on this are 1.) It gets birds in front of people and a judge... being in front of people promotes the breed and it's varieties. Being in front of a judge helps the exhibitor see flaws they might of missed and gets another view on the interpretation of the SOP.  2.) It would keep someone from taking an over adbundance of a variety just to chase points. 3.) It gives exhibitors a reason to still go to shows. 4.) Removes the need to try and find other people showing amerecauna in an area. 5.) Its a bit of a middle ground for everyone... especially people like me who knows no one and has limited shows nearby.

Personally i don't think a change is necessary, or fair even without a complete redistribution of points. But anyway.... just my 5 cents.... i had to round up since pennies are no longer a thing.

Mike Gilbert

  • Lifetime Member
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2025, 09:08:58 pm »
In reading over a number of posts on this thread it appears there is a prevailing opinion that entering shows with some kind of birds that qualify as Ameraucana is somehow "promoting the breed."   That may have been true 10 or 20 years ago, but today the Ameraucana is already one of most popular breeds.  The APA published reports in their Yearbook two years in a row that ranked recognized breeds by their numbers entered in sanctioned APA Meets.  Guess which breed was ranked number 1 for large fowl?  It was the Ameraucana!  Bantams ranked about in the middle of the pack.   But how many times does the Ameraucana get picked for best of show, or even top large fowl or bantam?  Or reserve?  Very few times, unless it happens to be one of our national meets.  That should tell us we need to focus more on quality and less on total numbers.  Showing birds that are not good representatives of the breed and variety is not promoting anything, just the reverse in fact.  A system that rewards numbers instead of prioritizing quality is counterproductive in my opinion.  That means we should all be showing our very best birds and leaving the "breeder quality" and lesser birds at home.   I believe that would result in a higher level of respect for the breed among judges and other exhibitors.  I understand there is going to be a learning curve among new fanciers and junior exhibitors.  We should stand ready to help these folks with sound advice and better stock when that is desired and warranted.  And I know some of this has already been happening.  To conclude, I hope this better explains why I tend to discourage point chasing.  I believe it encourages entering specimens that are less than good show quality or not in top condition.  And that is not promoting the breed. 
 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2025, 10:39:57 am by Mike Gilbert »
Mike Gilbert
1st John 5:11-13

Tailfeathers

  • College
  • ****
  • Posts: 422
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2025, 02:49:54 pm »
I'm just seeing this.  Before I chime in with any input I'm just wondering if the topic is still open to discussion.  There's a lot here and I'm seeing some good input.  I just don't wanna put a bunch of effort and thought into five pages of comments and something that's already been decided.

I will say here say that the idea of only counting one card on a double show makes no sense to me at all. Due to all my birds being put down and the subsequent health problems it's been 3yrs I think since I've attended a show.  Prior to that I regularly attended two shows in the state and at least one of them went to having a double show.  At those shows there were two individual different judges for each show.  Coop cards are flipped so the one judge can't see what the other judge did. If all parameters stayed the same and the show was held a week later it would be no different than if held the next day or even later in the same day.  So logically I just don't see the reasoning behind the decision to only allow for one card.

More later if I find this is still open to discussion.
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

Russ Blair

  • Administrator
  • Ameraucana Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2025, 02:56:16 pm »
Royce this topic is still open for discussion. After I get the winter newsletter formatted and published this will be the first topic of discussion I present the board of directors 😊
S.E. Michigan

Tailfeathers

  • College
  • ****
  • Posts: 422
  • Breeder & Exhibitor of WBS Ameraucanas since 2008
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2025, 03:40:32 pm »
In reading over a number of posts on this thread it appears... And that is not promoting the breed.

I started out to reply that I wholeheartedly 100% agree with everything you said there, Mike, but as I started to type that caught a couple of things that caused me pause.  Generally speaking I think you're spot on.  I'm just not sure I could paint that with such a broad brush.

The whole APA system has been pretty disenchanted and disillusioned.  For context, keep in mind that I only showed for about 15yrs and the same two shows every year.  I'd really have to put a lot more thought into this to give a good cogent reply but here are a few things that come quickly to mind that hopefully folks can get the meaning of.

1) For most of those 15yrs it was the same 2 judges every year.
2) You could bet the farm that a White bird would take Best of Show.
3) If it wasn't a White bird it was a solid colored bird.  Usually Black. (I still remember - which is a feat itself these days - a particular judge, who shall remain unnamed, telling me if I wanted to get on Champion Row I need to show a solid-colored bird.  When asked why he literally told me that parti-colored birds were harder to judge).
4) Back before the Lavenders were accepted a judge gave a rooster BV for AOV and RB!
5) There was a bird that was molting put on Champion Row as Best of Class.  The coop cage was littered with feathers and more feathers lost just while in the coop cage on Champion Row.  When I asked the judge why he picked that molting bird over a couple of others in the class he said, "It's just a prettier bird".
6) I've seen several times where birds with an obvious DQ were placed above others instead of being DQ'd.
7) At the last show I attended I was told by one of the "Old Timers" that there are a couple of young kids going to the shows, throwing a ton of money to buy the BoS bird, and then showing it until they lost interest in it and went and bought another bird.  Seems to be that's "point chasing" at it's worst.

Hopefully that explains why I became and am so disenchanted and disillusioned with the whole "showing" stuff.  My two greatest "rewards" I've gotten that I'll hold to is #1) seeing that BW pullet of mine selected by you, Mike, for your book, and 2) seeing that BW pullet that I posted pics of over on the Members Forum in my "It's Been Awhile" post.  That bird is what I had been working towards for 15yrs.  I honestly thought I had finally "arrived".  I'd have definitely found a way to get her to the AA and the APA Nationals just to see how she'd have done.
God Bless,

R. E. Van Blaricome
Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God, and all His Righteousness
- then these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33)

Laurie Ashley - Selah Farms

  • Lifetime Member
  • Associate
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
Re: Meet Policy Update
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2025, 03:24:59 pm »
So, it has occurred to me that perhaps people do not understand why "points chasing" should matter all that much.  I can't speak for others on this, but for me, it mattered greatly when I went looking to purchase a good starter flock of breeder birds, and was turned down multiple times, by many "top end" and respected breeders.  When I inquired why, I was told point blank, my name wasn't found anywhere in the APA/ABA points lists, thus I wasn't to be taken as a serious exhibitor.  It feels very much like gatekeeping going on.  It has been incredibly frustrating.  But I also make it a point not to treat others in this manner now.

Your instructed to only exhibit your best birds.  But then your also instructed to leave your best at home, for fear of exposing them to who knows what at any shows, and "the smart breeder never brings their best out, but instead brings an example of their breeding program".   
OK... how do you do that if what you have is considered to be subpar examples of the breed? Do you just continually show up as "points fodder" for those you know have superior birds, and hope that eventually you will be considered serious enough? 

Add to that, your told "just show/breed what you like".  What if "what I like" doesn't measure up to what someone else's interpretation of the SOP is? My birds are still considered subpar examples of the breed then? 

Even though I have made it to Best Variety, Best of Breed, and even Ch Row, multiple times, under several different APA/ABA Judges, in several areas of the country.  I have also gotten humbled quite a bit, and learned to ask for other breeders input and guidance on problem areas I have identified on my birds.  It is the biggest part of enjoyment of showing for me, is getting to talk to and learn from other breeders and exhibitors.  Ideas shared, guidance and input given.

What makes showing fun for me, is that *chance* at winning not just Variety, but potentially Breed.  To win, is to earn those points, and points gives me a record for the year to be able to gauge how I am doing, not just in my little area of shows, but against many breeders all over the country.