Meet Policy Update

[Max Strawn]

To keep it simple, I would say that exhibitors MUST be present, period. I understand that emergencies happen, but that is just how it goes sometimes. I would not burden someone with hauling my birds to a show, along with all the work and responsibility involved with that. It creates opportunity for hard feelings if something were to go wrong, such as if a bird dies or gets sick or even stolen. Just my two cents... 

[Mike Gilbert]

To keep it simple, I would say that exhibitors MUST be present, period. I understand that emergencies happen, but that is just how it goes sometimes. I would not burden someone with hauling my birds to a show, along with all the work and responsibility involved with that. It creates opportunity for hard feelings if something were to go wrong, such as if a bird dies or gets sick or even stolen. Just my two cents... 

Max, so you are saying just have that as part of the policy and don't worry about enforcing it as a hard and fast rule?  We could do that.  Hopefully no one would complain or snitch.

[Max Strawn]

There will always be some that will try to bend the rules. If someone wins a prize and they are not present, then the prize would go to the next place down.

[Rebecca G Howie]

I think it is really very simple. With that rule in the Meet Policy, an exhibitor will be aware that he/she must present to get Alliance awards/points. We all get to know one another pretty quickly at the shows, the person responsible for the meet report is going to get around to know if exhibitors are present. I don't think that is a problem. Then they can simply note on the report that the exhibitor is not present.

There is no snitching to it, the exhibitor is present or not present.

Agreed, some people will try to circumvent a rule, but that speaks to the person's character. Eventually it will be seen by others, either way it is their burden to carry.

[Mike Gilbert]

I just spoke to Carl Cook.   He sometimes has to take Daniel's birds to a show when Daniel has to work.    Daniel does all the work with his birds, including feeding, conditioning, and prepping for exhibition.  This rule, if implemented, would affect Daniel in a negative way.  He is a fine young man with excellent LF Blacks.  I say this based on his show records and achievements.   So this is an example to let you know why I can't support adding this proposal to the meet policy.   

[Russ Blair]

Well i see i have missed some suggestions since I logged in last. I see now there has been a suggestion that

 "the exhibitor MUST be present at a show to receive awards."

I am not going to pretend that I do not know what this pertains to. I do have some questions though before I give my personal thoughts on this matter. My first thought, like Mike mentioned, is "how would we police this". Better yet what are all the stipulations that we consider when enforcing this new requirement?  Do we allow a father (who is a due paying member) to bring his 18-year-old son's (who is a lifetime member) entries when he is called in to work last minute when an employee calls in sick? Or should that member be ineligible for awards?

What about the co-op breeders, the breeders that share birds and occasionally bring each other's birds to shows when the other partner just can't make it? Are they now also ineligible for awards because they couldn't attend the show? 

What about the breeder that cannot make the trip to enter birds into a show that is hosting a "pre-qualifying meet or qualifying meet" for getting that project variety recognized but wants to send birds with another member to help the petition. Are they not allowed awards??

So, if the board decides to implement this rule, I need to ask should we also require the member condition the bird in order to be eligible for awards? Do we require that a member raises and conditions the bird in order to be eligible for our awards? Better yet do we require that our member Breed, Raise and Condition the bird in order to be eligible for awards? I only ask because some breeders don't show birds that they buy because winning with bought birds don't hold any value to them. Much like winning BB or RB at a show where there is only one exhibitor does not hold much value or worth to a serious breeder.

While I am asking what about members that have other members pay their entry fees? Are those members now also disqualified from being awarded any points or awards as well? What if another member pays the hotel fees for another member that enters birds at a meet? Do we not allow that member to receive awards now too?

I have never heard of a show that requires the person that sends in an entry be present to receive any awards. I also don't know of the ABA or APA having any rule that requires this? If I am wrong, please correct me. 

Now for my personal thoughts, I get it, we have some members that are upset that Daniel Cook won Champion Ameraucana Overall this year when he was not present. Has any of these members reached out to Daniel to ask him why he was unable to attend this year's national meet? The sad part is that I was blessed with Reserve Champion Ameraucana Overall and I was not upset that he was not present. In fact, I shook Carl Cooks hand and told him to congratulate Daniel, I love seeing new breeders win that title.

I do not agree with this, but I will recommend that each board member look at each and every suggestion made when we resume our discussions.

[Max Strawn]

In the interest of keeping the youth in the hobby, I would be okay with them not being present for a legitimate reason.

For co-op breeders, as long as one is present,  they would qualify for awards.

[Kyle Porosky]

I do not believe that the member has to be present to earn awards. You cannot police this without an unbiased individual being present at every show. Otherwise you’re just putting one persons word against another.
The work put into your birds is started long before the show weekend


This is also portraying a double standard. If you’re not going to allow family/farm names to be members based on the fact that multiple people can show at different shows on the same weekend and receive awards/points at both. M&M poultry was the example of this scenario.

 What’s the difference if I am showing under my name in Louisiana and Michigan the same weekend but someone brings my birds to Louisiana and I’m showing in Michigan? Should i still be eligible for awards at both shows? Or what if im not present at either show?

You can’t say that one is ok and the other is not.

[Stan Alder]

           Just a couple of my opinions.. I see no good reason why someone else can not cage my birds under my name even if I am not present at the show.. my birds, my conditioning, my reward...
            as for the 3 show request max idea.. I think I know why that came about and I would suggest that 3 shows per quarter would be more in line with solving that issue.. Shows must be requested in the quarter before the show date and not before..
           I think if there is no competition in a particular variety, then points should not be awarded unless the variety goes BB or RB. 1 or 2 points for a variety is meaningless anyway..
           One thing I would like to add is that a rare variety like Brown Red winning BB should never get fewer points than any other Ameraucana shown in that show.. if there are 3 Brown Reds and one takes BB, and 12 Blacks and one is RV, currently the Black would earn more points even though the Brown Red was awarded the better bird.
          One more thought.. double card shows... both shows are judged by different judges and should both be counted as elegible for points... it is two shows!

[Stan Alder]

 The vote on these changes needs to be extended past the 14 days.. there is too much still needing to be worked out and too much confusion needing to be resolved..

[Russ Blair]

 “One thing I would like to add is that a rare variety like Brown Red winning BB should never get fewer points than any other Ameraucana shown in that show.. if there are 3 Brown Reds and one takes BB, and 12 Blacks and one is RV, currently the Black would earn more points even though the Brown Red was awarded the better bird.“

Stan, actually the Brown Red (that took BB) actually gets points for every Bantam entered along with the BV points earned by placing higher than the other 6 Brown Reds that were entered. Just like my Splash Hen that placed reserve of breed is awarded points for every bantam entered minus one (the brown red that placed BB). Also I just want to remind everyone that the only policy that I have recommended any changes to the board was the meet policy. There hasn’t been any suggestions or discussion on changes the our exhibitor points policy 

[John W Blehm]

...I just want to remind everyone that the only policy that I have recommended any changes to the board was the meet policy. There hasn’t been any suggestions or discussion on changes the our exhibitor points policy...

Yes, but those changes to the Meet Policy greatly affect the Points Policy and that is why so many are against much/most of what is being proposed. The Meet Policy has served us well for many years, because it was well thought out and discussed before being approved. We even included language way back then about members being "strongly encouraged" to fill out Meet Reports, since some show clubs weren't furnishing them or at least not in a timely manner. If Meet Reports for Club Meets aren't being reported in our Newsletters, it is because our members that are requesting the meets haven't taken the time to do what has been requested of them. So, yes "strongly encouraged" needs to be changed to "shall" since the problem with show clubs has gotten worse.
My proposed changes are in a previous post, in this topic, with a little revision.

[Laurie Ashley - Selah Farms]

No other breed club I belong to cares how many meets you request, nor do they care if you are a points chaser or not, because at the end of every show, you are exhibiting and promoting the breed, which is kind of the point, right?   So I am still failing to grasp or comprehend here why these proposed changes need to be made.  All I can see it doing is causing many to no longer exhibit nearly as many Ameraucana, as there would be far fewer meets to be able to gain exhibition points at.

I will restate:

I do not agree that changes to the number of meets requested need to be made.
 
I do agree that each member shall be responsible for their own show report, if they requested the meet.  (and heck, if they didn't request it, it doesn't hurt to learn to complete show reports as back ups and cross reference information).

I do agree that being Cc'd in on meet requests sent to host clubs would be a great way to include requestor in the process.

I do agree that each exhibitor should be physically present if their birds are being shown. (barring accidents/illness) But not being able to get off work? sorry that one doesn't fly.  We have to schedule time off from work too. If we don't get that time off scheduled, we don't get to go show.  (I would love to be able to send my birds off to show with someone else all the time, that would enable me to show simultaneously in multiple locations... hummm... professional handlers occupation opening, like horses and dogs?...)
If your not going to enforce being responsible for cooping your own birds in at a show, then why the stance against farm memberships and allowing people to show under a farm mantle at multiple locations?

[Stan Alder]

Stan, actually the Brown Red (that took BB) actually gets points for every Bantam entered along with the BV points earned by placing higher than the other 6 Brown Reds that were entered.....

Russ... this is the point I am trying to make.. The Brown red got  6 points for variety plus say 20 BB points for the breed entries.. total of 26 points ...the Black that was RB got 12 points for BV and 19 points for RB.. total of 31 points, so the Reserve of breed received a total of 5 points more than the BB.. am I calculating this wrong???

[Mike Gilbert]

I do not think an exhibitor must be present at a show to get his awards.  There is no way to enforce such a rule equitably, and it could lead to all kinds of disputes and hard feelings.  There are kids like Daniel, who has a supervisory position for his shift, who is responsible enough to know that recreational activities do NOT come before more important duties.  Someone could actually get fired for doing that, especially now when good help is hard to come by.  Someone could get seriously ill just before a show and have a friend take his entries.  For example, I have experienced vertigo that comes on suddenly and lasts for days; it leaves me unable to drive or even function sometimes.   It comes and goes.  Does that mean I would have to get a written excuse from my doctor?  They don't work for free.  As far as limiting the number of meets to three per person per year, lets at least be honest here.  Right now our meets mean very little.  Who even reads the results in the newsletter?  This is not 2015 anymore, and our priorities need to change accordingly.  The Ameraucana is already one of the most popular breeds in the country according to the APA yearbook reports.  What do we gain by showing mediocre (or less) birds?  Nothing.  In fact, we go backwards in some cases.  Yet that is exactly what the present point system encourages.   Show lots of birds, no matter their quality, to get more points.  That is ridiculous and works against our mission statement.  It's time for an overhaul of the system, and that is what I hope happens.  There have been many good suggestions here, and they will be taken into account.  But unlimited meets and requiring physical presence are two that I will oppose.  I encourage others to put their egos aside and do what is best for the breed.  In my opinion, it has always been about the birds and their improvement, and everything else is secondary.  For the last 50 years.