Chick Phenotype

[Tailfeathers]

Well, color me Stubborn!  LOL  I like a good challenge.  I know I'm a few years away but I think I'm getting close!  With y'alls help and being so gracious as you have been to answer my questions I may just get there before they plant me.

[olimoo17]

I'm interested in learning more about chick down. Here are four chicks with different phenotypic expression of black including the 'penguin' or 'clown face' pattern to a chick that almost all black to chicks that are mostly cream. Any guesses on genotype?  Keep or cull?

[Mike Gilbert]

Chicks 3 and 4 are blues, correct?   If so they appear similar to the first/top chick to me, except for the lighter shank coloring.  That might be attributable to the diluted melanin (black pigment).   So at this point I would not worry too much about that, as shank color can take time to develop. 

[Caprice Dowsland]

I think those chicks labelled "bad recessive white" are cute! giggles be funny if that became a new color like buff! If I ended up with one I'd have to keep it if it was healthy and a girl!

[Mindy Waters]

So much good info here. Thank you very much!

[Russ Blair]

Anyone ever see a splash from a blue x blue mating with this much yellow down? I kept it to see how it feathered and it is exhibiting a lot of blue with 1/4” wide white Feather tips?

[Russ Blair]

Here’s a picture of it at hatch

[Mindy Waters]

John, I have the same question as CJ. The pics show a darker sooty gray chick as "bad" and the yellow one as normal. From what I've seen, many prefer the light gray chicks (maybe not as dark as pictured) because they are thought to be silver ground color and the yellow chicks are supposedly gold ground color. Have you found this to be accurate to assume, or still variable? With males potentially being split S/s+ and Silver being dominant, I would think even split cockerel chicks would appear Silver IF you can tell by down color. Can you see differences in chick down based on ground color? I've also seen it theorized that e allele matters and extended black and melanizer genes may be what's responsible for the differences. Wondering what your thoughts and experiences are. Personally, I've had the gray downs chicks get yellow/brassy with sun exposure too.

[Mindy Waters]

Thank you. Your input confirms a lot of my own conclusions, based on what I've seen in my own Whites. I haven't bought into the theory that you can tell ground color on E and ER chick down, even with a dilute like recessive white. It's something that gets mentioned often though and I've always encouraged test-breeding and not making an assumption based on chick down.

[Mike Gilbert]

I'm going to disagree a little with the premise the the S link should not affect any of the self colors.  That would be most obvious with Buff, which is a self color.   In my experience S instead of s in Blacks is going to result in light undercolor, epecially ahead of the tail in both sexes.  I saw that in my own birds years ago when I crossed Silver Laced Wyandotte bantams with Black Wyandotte bantams.   And I still believe better green sheen can be achieved in blacks using s instead of S.  It's not the only factor - feather structure is also important. and possibly such factors as stress, feather picking, and diet.   In whites, I believe S is best instead of s to help prevent brassiness - again just one factor among others.  The same would be true in lavender.    We may not notice that much (if at all), because I believe lavender was built using S based blacks.  And the brassiness may not be noticeable in white and lavender until the feathers get old, worn, or sunburned.   So it is not just as simple as saying S should be used for this and s for that since other factors come into play.

[Mindy Waters]

I wouldn't want barring in there personally, if slate legs are desired. Maybe it would be beneficial in breeds that want white or yellow legs. I've seen it in White Marans and the Cuckoo outcrossing helped with leg color in birds that did not have dermal melanin inhibitor (Id) genes. Their Standard calls for white legs, slate is a defect.

I have some Whites this season from a lavender pen. So they're homozygous for both lavender and recessive white. So far, none are expressing the shredder effect. I'm finding that very interesting and something I'm taking notes about. As always, watching for brassiness too.