Meet Policy Update

[John W Blehm]

...nobody has suggested "ten or more birds and three or more individuals competing."...

OK, I took those numbers from Russ' "AA Proposed Meet Policy Draft 1.docx" he linked to, above, and it is for ribbons, not points.
Yes, I remember this is one those areas we didn't agree on. 

[Russ Blair]

I edited some of this comment now that I had a little free time at break.

First off let me say that I am glad to see so many members getting involved in this discussion. This is why I started it and I truly welcome everyone's ideas and thoughts on these matters, as do the board of directors. Unfortunately, I do not have much time to spare before i leave tomorrow for fowl fest, but I wanted to chime in to help keep this from spiraling into something it is not. After seeing some post on Facebook, comments on here and a phone call or two I wanted to set the record straight on a few things to help keep this a constructive discussion.

1 The proposed meet policy changes that I included in this discussion are just one of three proposals that I drafted, with the help of one other director to get it started, to have the directors vote on. When none of them passed by absolute majority it was suggested to present it to the members attending the annual meeting. Which I thought was a great idea and is why I did it and chose to present this proposal due to it receiving the most votes. Some members might argue my tactics and delivery methods. So please allow me to explain why I did not allow much to any discussion at the annual meeting. According to our By-Laws it states in Article 4 – Ameraucana Newsletter
Our Ameraucana Newsletter is our official means to disseminate information to our membership, but since it is
only received quarterly the board may also use our Ameraucana Forum (Ameraucana.org) and/or email to
communicate information it feels is relevant.  I value all members input in matters of importance, and it became clear this would fall into that category. So, I wanted to use our second means of disseminating club information to our members as it reads in our By-Laws. More importantly I wanted to start a discussion where all our members could participate instead of just a handful that attended our annual dinner.

2. These proposed changes are just the starting point for opening this discussion. I truly welcome everyone's thoughts on these matters. I am looking for what needs clarification, what needs added, and also what do our members want removed or changed.

3. I am not looking to punish members, make requesting meets harder, or singling any of our members out with any of these changes. I do feel there are some serious issues that warrants some needed changes and i will discuss them later on. With this said I will not sit back and allow anyone to run our club in the mud or any of directors, charter members, honorary vice presidents or members of this Alliance in any way shape or form through text messages, messenger or social media platforms. This discussion was started here with our members, in good faith to give full transparency in hopes of finding solutions and that is how we will conduct this discussion. No one benefits from any unneeded drama in the poultry world, and it truly is counterproductive to the task at hand. So please reframe from such behavior and instead please bring your thoughts and ideas here instead, thank you.

Now I have much more to say but as I mentioned I am short on time right now. Before I go, I would like to share what caused me to start this discussion with the board of directors four months ago or so.
1. First off, most show superintendents/secretaries refuse to send in meet reports. After receiving complaints about members not receiving ribbons I started looking into these matters. I found 6 sanctioned meets that have not received meet reports.
2. Within the first month of this board assuming office I witnessed meet request be submitted by a member for a 600 bird show over 1,000 miles from them that they have never attended and they did not attend after it was accepted.
3. I also received complaints that meet request were not being sent in or accepted. Which this board of directors, or director in charge of placing meets, cannot force show superintendents to acknowledge or accept any meet request for sanctioned shows. No more than we can force them to fill out meet reports and send them in.
4. I had a member complain when I denied there meet request when it was sent in after the publishing date of the newsletter that would have printed after the post mark entry date. Which is a direct violation of our current meet policy.

I only bring this up to validate my concerns and need to start the discussion about making some changes to the current meet policy. There are some flaws in the current meet policy and I stand behind my decision to address this to help bring clarification and fairness to the process, not just for our members but also for the members that volunteer to hold a director position. I would like to say that after witnessing the concerns many of you are presenting, I feel we should extend the discussion deadline. I would propose we extend it to 14 days after the winter newsletter publishing date of December 1, 2025, that way I can include this topic in my presidents' report. That way members that do not frequent this forum are informed of what is transpiring (meet policy changes) allowing them to log in and voice any concerns.

With all this said I also want to say I feel much like Mike Gilbert, where is the value of our meets or our master exhibitor status if there is only one member attending and competing against themselves? It might look like we are changing the rules to make it harder but the reality is that if you want to win points and achieve your master exhibitor status that takes putting in the work of breeding better birds and attending big shows with lots of competition. It surely doesn’t mean going in debt from entering a lot of birds in shows with no competition. The only time I really cared about points is when Debbie Hogan and I were racing to be the first recipient of our master exhibitor award, which she beat me to it lol. If anyone wants to know how any of the 8 current members reached this milestone I strongly encourage them to reference our archived newsletters where we publish all our meet reports. I guarantee you won’t see any fast earners but instead you will see members who dedicated their time and resources in creating better Ameraucana that could win at any level of competition.

Thanks for reading this and please continue any and all discussions, but please try to see this for its intent instead of a reason to argue. Like I said earlier, I am looking for solutions not arguments or punishment. I will be back but I have to go to Chesaning to try and put some Ameraucana on Champion row, not to mention type up a report/article for the poultry press October 10th deadline 

[Kyle Porosky]

I will just say, I think the points are a fun thing to see, but I do not strive to solely gain more points. I have never requested a meet, mostly due to I do not want to be the one responsible if it gets messed up (like the meet reports that have not been turned in).

I have read most of the posts made in this thread and have a few thoughts. Please correct me if I missed, misread, misinterpreted or misunderstood anything that has already been stated.

1) Accountability - If you have sent in and have had your meet request accepted, you will be the one to either fill out the meet report or have your signature on the meet report if another member fills it out. If you do not do either of these, all other meet requests you send in will be denied for the remainder of the calendar year/the following year (as you send in meet requests 3+ months early)

2) Limiting Meet Requests - there should be no limit on how many meet requests one person can send in for the year. All limiting people does is create a system where people find loopholes. If you are going to attend a show you should be able to make a request for it.

3) Denial - This may hurt some people’s feelings but there should be some meet requests that are turned down. Such as like Mike said if the “National Meet” is happening, there should be no other “Club Meets” that same weekend. The National is THE club meet of all club meets. Now if there is going to be 2 National Meets there should be some border that is regional to each national meet.

4) Point Chasing (Varirties) - There should be no minimum on how many exhibitors (in a variety) it takes to get points. If you are going to put in the time and effort to raise LF Silver you should be able to obtain points. Just because no one else isn’t willing to put in the work required with a more difficult variety doesn’t mean the person who raises them should be “punished”. If the only reason you raise certain varieties is for points that’s more of a moral issue than a club issue. Most people would be lucky to even witness a LF Silver, Brown Red or Wheaten at one show a year. If you say that’s not worth giving someone 5 points for bringing 5 of them to a show you might as well take them out of the standard.

5) Point Chasing (Exhibitors) - There should be a minimum of 2 Ameraucana Alliance MEMBERS (Jr and/or Open) at a show to gain points at a meet. If it’s just one member there it would be called a solo. You’re not meeting with anyone to promote the breed. (Might be taking this a little too literal)

6) Newsletter - All meets should be requested in a timely manner for it to be published in the newsletter for all members to be informed of upcoming meets.

In my whole hearted opinion a “Club Meet” doesn’t make “an alliance of folks focused on the promotion of standard bred Ameraucana chickens and positive support for those interested in standard bred Ameraucana chickens” , bringing quality birds out to shows and sharing the knowledge you have about the breed does (as many of you so kindly have done).

[Rachel Dunn]

I have gone through and made changes to the meet policy proposal Russ originally attached to this discussion. Some edits are simple, such as formatting. I've rearranging sections of the proposal so it reads easier. Attached is my newly edited version. All areas highlighted in yellow indicate grammatical additions/changes. All areas highlighted in blue indicate the newly proposed changes. All areas highlighted in orange indicate additions or corrections suggested by other members or myself. Finally, the areas highlighted in red indicate sections that need to be changed to better describe their intentions.

I do whole-heartedly believe that all members ARE earning points when entering their birds in shows. Now, as far as what the bare minimum requirement is for exhibits/exhibitors - I like the idea of at least three birds per variety exhibited by at least two individuals. This would truly be the absolute bare minimum to not be competing only against oneself. With that being said, I do understand that there are areas with very few members and some varieties that almost don't exist.

Some members are satisfied with their status and have earned their points, while others are just beginning to show in the breed. Though, we must admit, that by earning one or two points by having an BV/RV bird in a very small class will not get us very far or very quickly. If members are truly "chasing points" they would be seeking out shows with large amounts of Ameraucana, or be entering large amounts of Ameraucana hoping to have the only ones. Even then, they would need to have Ameraucana of good quality to be placing well against any others shown.

As far as promoting the breed/club goes, I believe that simply by entering Ameraucana in a show we are promoting the breed. Whether that show is an Alliance meet or not. And, by being a members of the Alliance, we are promoting the club. All simply by showing up, being present, and discussing with other poultry fanciers at shows. In my opinion, one of the large points of discussion with these changes is to encourage members (and non-members) to communicate with one another - share with each other where and when you plan to go, and what you plan to take.

I know there is a lot of controversy around them, but I personally like double-card shows. I still have to breed, raise, feed, condition, and prepare my birds all the same whether a show is today, last week, tomorrow, yesterday, in three months from now, or one in the morning and another in the afternoon. It is always one judges opinion, in one moment of the day. To tie this back to members earning their points, you may notice a section on the attached PDF. I'm suggesting "In the case of double or triple judged shows, meet requests must list an additional Ameraucana exhibitor, per each additional show, for each additional show judged to qualify as a sanctioned meet." Essentially meaning, for a single judged show we are suggesting three exhibitors expected to compete would be listed on the meet request. If it is a double judged show, four exhibitors expected to compete would be listed on the meet request. And so on if this is the way we wish to go.

I hope more good discussion can continue on this subject.

[Mike Gilbert]

I like Rachel's write-up for proposed changes to meet policy.  The only clarification I would make is to allow more than three requests per member per year in the event that one or more are turned down by our meets director.  Each person should be able to request three meets that are actually approved.   Thank you Rachel!  Your support is appreciated!

[John W Blehm]

...I feel we should extend the discussion deadline. I would propose we extend it to 14 days after the winter newsletter publishing date of December 1, 2025,...

Good, but since I've not seen anyone opposed to a requirement that a member(s) fills out and turns in a meet report(s), I suggest you agree on the language for that change in the meet policy now. Vote on it and get that out of the way as soon as possible to try to eliminate that problem. I also suggest you don't include a requirement that a show superintendent sign it. They are way too busy to actually verify a meet report during a show, so I see no value to their signature. Two Alliance members should be able to able to handle the task.

[Mike Gilbert]

...I feel we should extend the discussion deadline. I would propose we extend it to 14 days after the winter newsletter publishing date of December 1, 2025,...

Good, but since I've not seen anyone opposed to a requirement that a member(s) fills out and turns in a meet report(s), I suggest you agree on the language for that change in the meet policy now. Vote on it and get that out of the way as soon as possible to try to eliminate that problem. I also suggest you don't include a requirement that a show superintendent sign it. They are way too busy to actually verify a meet report during a show, so I see no value to their signature. Two Alliance members should be able to able to handle the task.

Because of our current meet policy, there may not be two Alliance members present to sign.  Even none if the requesting member does not show up.  But say there is one.  Would that be sufficient?   Or??

[John W Blehm]

Because of our current meet policy, there may not be two Alliance members present to sign.  Even none if the requesting member does not show up.  But say there is one.  Would that be sufficient?   Or??

Mike,

If the show superintendent actually sends in reports within 30, 60 or what number of days, then the report(s) of the member(s) aren't even needed. If no member exhibits, we have no use for a report. If only one shows up, that could be covered in the revised language saying one would then be sufficient or whatever.

[Jessica Loree]

I actually AGREE with Kyle (Reply #17)

With the exception of not having a Club Meet on the same weekend as the National Meet, but would be willing to compromise with a Mileage requirement for a Club meet to be held the same weekend as the National Meet. 

Example:  National Meet in Dayton, OH...  PROPOSAL:  No club meets within a 600 mile radius.  This would allow CA, TX, FL, and other people in far away places to still exhibit their birds, if they can't travel 800+ miles to the National Meet. 


edited to add:  Also, as of yet, we do not know where the 2026 National Meet is.  If someone requests a show before the location of the National Meet is announced, do they lose their request?  I'd like to think on this thought a little bit more...

[Jessica Loree]

Could the Total Ameraucana Exhibited count required to be an accepted meet be combined for both LF AND Bantams?  An Ameraucana is an Ameraucana, and some of us have both, and some only have one or the other. 

In Rachel's 4th Draft of the proposal, it appears this is open for discussion.


Also, I'm still concerned about having 3 names for the meet REQUEST to be accepted.  Can we change that to TWO, and require that they NOT be within the same household?

My reasoning for this is: New people simply don't know anyone when they first start out.  There is no actual membership list provided to the members, with the exception of those few that are listed in the Breeders Directory.  How can we as a group, help those that are new and don't know any one?  Being new is scary.  Cold-Calling is scary.  Having to call those who aren't on our friends list is annoying.  And, meets help new members build relationships. 

[Laurie Ashley - Selah Farms]

I would also like to request an addendum to the policy to state:  If you are the one the birds are entered under, YOU have to be physically the one at the show actually cooping in and showing the birds. Jr and Open classes both.

A number of times in the past couple of years, and even recently, I have noticed birds being entered in both LF and Bantam varieties but the person who entered them isn't even actually at the show.  I've heard everything from "had to work"  "Had a birthday party"  "got sick" "went camping with family" "Had to study for exams".  If I send in my entries, but something comes up and I am unable to attend, my birds don't get taken to the show for me.  Someone else doesn't coop them in, or groom/prep and feed/water them for me, and I am ineligible for any wins as I am not there, nor are my birds.
  This has occurred in both Open and in Jr classes.  Yet those exhibitors were still awarded points for the birds placements.  How is that fair and good sportsmanlike conduct for other exhibitors who did take the time off of work, take time away from other activities, to participate in the poultry show?
 

[Laurie Ashley - Selah Farms]

Next question - is there a policy in place regarding meets placed at Bantam only shows?
I have noticed several shows down by my next of the woods that only allow Bantams.  Would I be allowed to request a meet for these shows? It would be a great show option for being able to promote the breed, and I know I could have at least 4 other exhibitors with bantam Ameraucana with a decent sized entry in the various varieties (at least 3 in most recognized variety). 

But is this fair to LF breeders?

[Mike Gilbert]

There is nothing in either the old or the proposed meet policies to prevent a meet from being held at bantam-only shows.   Accumulating points is not a competition, so I don't know why anyone would care.   If they object they can take it up with show management. 

[Becky J Pelton]

That was a lot of information to read and digest.  I believe I have a clear understanding of what is written in the new proposed changes.
 
 1) The AA forum is difficult to navigate.  Unless you have lots of time and patience you leave the page before you find what you are looking for.   If this is the only location we can discuss meeting or other pertinent information this site needs to be updated.  I get tired of clicking around to find what I need.

2) “points for multiple card shows” I only show a couple times a year and I normally travel more than 600 miles for a show.  I feel if I have put in the time and effort to attend a show I should receive points for multiple cards.  Each card will have different judges. That means I showed my birds at multiple shows on the same day. 


3) “show reports” I agree that the person to request the show should be responsible for the report if one is not turned in by the show secretary.

4) “only 3 shows requested per member “  I can understand why some breeders believe this proposal should be approved, but I am think we should not put a limit on shows that are requested per member.  If that member is attending shows they request then why limit the shows ?  If you have to put a limit on shows that number needs to be increased. 


5). “3 members per show with secretary signature “.   Some states only have 1 show per year with limited member in that area.  If myself and one other member have taken the time to attend that show and have agreed to help with the AA then points should be applied.   The Secretary and judges are very busy.  Many times they don’t have the time to chat much less sign a piece of paper that the AA may never see.

More to come, just need to read over everything again

[Becky J Pelton]

6) “show request before the quarterly news letter”. Most show are scheduled well in advance so I agree with a request needing to be made before the newsletter is published, but I feel their needs to be wording added to include how to proceed if a AA meeting is canceled at short notice. If that was to happen I would like for there to be a way another AA club meeting could be approved within 30 days.   That would mean it could not be announced in the News letter.

7) when the annual meetings are discussed we need to be sure that all states are included in that request.   Every Annual AA meeting I have attended, I have had to travel more than 600 miles.  I would like for more Southern States to be discussed.  Such as Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia or even South Carolina.   There are breeders on the South East Coast that are not able to attend meetings because of the distance they will have to drive. 

“showing another breeders birds”.  Laura is correct, there are people that take advantage of this topic.  I, myself could see where this would help another breeder in case of an emergency.  This is just an example:  let say Stan had his birds prepared and ready for the show but an emergency came up and he was not able to show.  I would happy to take his birds and place them in the cages.  I do not want to be responsible for show forms, payments, bathing, and he would be willing to crate his birds. I would be willing to accept the responsibility of placing his birds in the cage safety and then bringing the home after the show.  Those would still be his birds.  I would just be a transporter.


9) Again I’m going to reiterate the fact that this site is NOT user friendly.   If this is the only forum we can use it needs to be updated and ALL members need to be aware of that fact.  If this site cannot be updated the Alliance needs to come up with a website that is more user friendly.