Silver Spangled Ameraucana Project

[John W Blehm]

...If anyone knows Dick Dickerson he may be able to shed some additional light on this, as he was planning to visit with the widow of Dr McGraw at some point this spring I believe.

Dick is an Alliance member too and I can supply contact info on members to other members that request it.

[Suki]

When I see conflicting information like that from various sources, I really wonder if anybody knows for sure.  A lot has been learned since Carefoot, Hutt, and Jeffrey wrote.   

that's true Mike, so what's a good book that builds on that past and supplies new information?This thread also occurred on FB to some degree, basically on "cream" wheatens and lots of books were mentioned but most people did not know of their veracity.  So if you shed some light that would be grand.

Thanks Sue Paolini

[Mike Gilbert]

Carefoot did a lot of test matings, but I don't know if anyone really verified his work.   It is tedious, takes multiple generations of birds, raising a lot, and keeping careful records.   Hopefully accurate information will be supplied via DNA testing at some point.    Then too, in some cases there is probably more than one way to reach a desired result.   Look at blacks for example.   They could be based on E or they could be based on ER or maybe on something else with adequate melanizers.   There is a recessive black which admittedly I don't know much about as I have not run across it.   Then there are the modifying genes.  Why are some blacks produced with a green sheen, some dull, and some purple?   Also, I know that my Brown Red large fowl are genetically different than my bantam Brown Reds, as  some of the latter have the penquin look as chicks.  John was here the weekend of June 4th and noticed it then.   Until we have access to inexpensive DNA testing I think we will just have to use intuition, experience and the unverified opinion of others. 

[John W Blehm]

When I see conflicting information like that from various sources, I really wonder if anybody knows for sure.  A lot has been learned since Carefoot, Hutt, and Jeffrey wrote.   

that's true Mike, so what's a good book that builds on that past and supplies new information?This thread also occurred on FB to some degree, basically on "cream" wheatens and lots of books were mentioned but most people did not know of their veracity.  So if you shed some light that would be grand.
Thanks Sue Paolini

Bantam Chickens, by Jeffrey is the only book on genetics I have and it sits on the shelf.  It was a good book for its time, but I prefer the internet.  I can find some really old poultry articles/papers along with some of the most up to date information on poultry genetics.  I have links to sites that explain the basics pinned under the Breeding subforum.

I said...

With silver on both sides of the matings I'm surprised the tail is black...more like a golden spangled phenotype.  Do you think it is possible he is S/s+?

With enough chicks hatched you should be getting spangled tails soon.  It sounds like the black tail indicates the bird isn't E^R/E^R and that or E/E may be needed for a spangled tail.  He is probably carrying e⁺ from the silver Ameraucana, especially if he is from the original cross.  Here is a good article on Speckles, Dots and Spangles.  Near the bottom half of page 3 she talks about spangled tails and E^R.
 

[Mike Gilbert]

I believe the black tail in Golden Spangled Hamburgs is caused by the fact they are based on eb and not ER.   Similarly, the aced Sebrights are based on ER and have laced tails, while Silver Laced Wyandottes are based on eb and have black tails. 

[Suki]

I believe this is from W. C. Carefoot...

...and demonstrated that of the Silver‐spangled Hamburgh to be homozygous ER, co+, Db, Ml and Pg‐.

The full citation is

2. The genotype of the black-laced blue and the spangled plumage phenotypes of the Andalusian and the Silver-spangled Hamburgh had,respectively, been shown to depend on homozygosity of E, Co, db+, Ml and Pg, and of co+, Db, Ml and Pg together with a black down allele at the E-locus presumed to be E, but are also hypothesized to be ER.

 The genes E and ER are the extended black and birchen-like allele at the E-locus whilst Co, Db, Ml and Pg are, respectively, the eumelanin restrictors, Columbian and dark-brown Columbian, the eumelanin extension melanotic and the pattern gene.
 
 The Sebright had been hypothesised to possess the E allele at the E-locus, and to be homozygous Co, Ml and Pg, a combination shown to be responsible for the black-tailed laced phenotype of the Wyandotte.
 

[Suki]

I know that my Brown Red large fowl are genetically different than my bantam Brown Reds, as  some of the latter have the penguin look as chicks.   

Mike you are the  sponsor of the LF Brown Red, who was the one for the bantams?

Sue Paolini

[Mike Gilbert]

I know that my Brown Red large fowl are genetically different than my bantam Brown Reds, as  some of the latter have the penguin look as chicks.   

Mike you are the  sponsor of the LF Brown Red, who was the one for the bantams?Sue Paolini

No sponsor was required.   Development of the brown red bantam is pretty well told in the history article of the new Handbook.    Jerry made the strain that was shown at the 1983 qualifying meet, and later I made at least three different strains of the bantams. 

[Suki]

I believe the black tail in Golden Spangled Hamburgs is caused by the fact they are based on eb and not ER. 

Well from what I read, Golden Spangling Hamburgs (GSH) are totally incompatible with tail spangling, hence the APA requirement that the GSH have a black main tail section; while the SSH can be completely spangled.  It's hard to see from Harry's picture if he boy is completely spangled, but i would hope that is the case.  I checked my notes and I have nothing on the GSH tail being eb.

Sue Paolini

[Mike Gilbert]

It is not the tail that is eb, the entire bird is based on eb.      If you don't believe that is the case, then what is your explanation for the black tail?

[John W Blehm]

Well from what I read, Golden Spangling Hamburgs (GSH) are totally incompatible with tail spangling, hence the APA requirement that the GSH have a black main tail section; while the SSH can be completely spangled... 
Sue Paolini

For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without.  My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago.  Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams.  He and I discussed the differences in tails, in the SOP, and thought the two colors should have the same phenotype.  He has since given up on the golden spangled variety.
The link I gave above is worth the read on this subject...

Here is a good article on Speckles, Dots and Spangles.  Near the bottom half of page 3 she talks about spangled tails and ER.

[Mike Gilbert]

Here is some discussion on the subject from the so-called experts at Classroom at the Coop.   They don't really know either.   http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=102748&Searchpage=2&Main=13878&Words=Hamburg&Search=true#Post102748

[Harry Shaffer]

Mike,  he has a black tail and muffs and beards like a Thuringer and hopefully I can keep them that way but I have a large variation of chick down colors and juvenile coloring.  All my males looked like the same with black tails so maybe I will get lucky.

I forgot my password for Classroom at the coop so maybe some day I will remember it if not I will ask my friend who was a moderator there if I feel it is necessary.

[Mike Gilbert]

Well from what I read, Golden Spangling Hamburgs (GSH) are totally incompatible with tail spangling, hence the APA requirement that the GSH have a black main tail section; while the SSH can be completely spangled... 
Sue Paolini

For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without.  My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago.  Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams.  He and I discussed the differences in tails, in the SOP, and thought the two colors should have the same phenotype.  He has since given up on the golden spangled variety.
The link I gave above is worth the read on this subject...

Here is a good article on Speckles, Dots and Spangles.  Near the bottom half of page 3 she talks about spangled tails and ER.

Yes, she confirms spangled tails with ER and black tails with eb, at least on the male birds.   Does not talk about the females for some reason.  She also confirms that silver or gold has nothing to do with the tail color. 

[Suki]

What do chickens and sausages have to do with one another other than its summertime?

For whatever reason they accepted silver spangled Hamburgs with spangled tails, but golden spangled without.  My friend, Ed Linton, has bred SS Hamburgs most of his life and started working on golden spangled several years ago.  Because of some of the crosses involved he had both spangled and black tailed bantams. 

Ed had spangled Goldens?