Brown Reds and Crosses

[Beth Curran]

That's interesting - knock on wood I've never found any, either.

[Russ Blair]

Beth you know you just jinxed yourself right? With that I am staying silent lol

[Beth Curran]

Lol, totally!

[Suki]

 I did have a black d.q.'d years ago for stubs, and she did have brown red blood in her.   It happens.

Very interesting Mike.  I can't say I've seen it, but I'll take your word on that one.  Thanks for the tip.

Sue

[Mike Gilbert]

 I did have a black d.q.'d years ago for stubs, and she did have brown red blood in her.   It happens.

Very interesting Mike.  I can't say I've seen it, but I'll take your word on that one.  Thanks for the tip.

Sue

I even culled a bantam Partridge Chantecler newly hatched chick this year when I spotted a clump of fuzz on one leg.    This is a very common mutation, and I have no doubt it is where feather legged chickens came from when breeders started to prioritize it in their breeding programs. 

[John W Blehm]

I have two quads of LF outcrosses that I'm using to hopefully produce some nice Ameraucana chicks.  At the start of the breeding season I had twice the number of breeders for each of these projects, but culled down to the best of the best with egg size and color being major factors. 

The cockerels have foreign color in their hackles, so many folks consider them Easter Eggers.  Keep in mind that Ameraucanas were created from Easter Eggers and sometimes you have to create more Easter Eggers from Ameraucanas thru outcrosses like this and then use them to create, recreate or improve varieties of Ameraucanas. 

Below are a couple photos of chicks I hatched today.

The first two are from my brown red/black outcross F1 birds.  The first chick has typical black (E) phenotype and was sold as a reject.  The second, mostly black chick, looks more like it could be brown red or birchen (E^R) and it will be raised with the hopes of maturing into one.

The second photo has four chicks from my silver/lavender outcross F1 birds.  These are the four phenotypes that hatch.  1st is a over melanized silver, then a lavender, a black and finally the keeper...a lavender silver.  The first 3 were sold as rejects/culls because I don't know what genes they may be hiding.

[John W Blehm]

Here is a little update on my LF brown red breeding.  I kept 2 cockerels that have the brown red color/pattern.  They aren't great and should be bigger, but they were the best I had and all the pullets matured mostly black.  I got a couple medium sized pullets from Mike, last fall, and I'm only using the one that lays the bluest egg with the two cockerels.  Her eggs are small/medium, but she is laying about 6 per week and the hatch rate is great.
50% or more of the chicks are hatching with E/E (Extended black) looking phenotype and are sold as rejects.  I'm being very critical and saving only the ones with E^R/E^R (Birchen) (pretty much) solid black phenotype, so those with cream chins and bellies are gone.  Last week I kept about 2 or 3 and this week I didn't keep any of the 4 that hatched.  Hopefully I'll have some with good color and patterns to show in the fall, even if size isn't improved. 

[Suki]

But I would imagine John that Mike's br's were bantams, so are you saying that even for bantams they are small?

[Mike Gilbert]

But I would imagine John that Mike's br's were bantams, so are you saying that even for bantams they are small?

Sue, they are large fowl.   I have had the large fowl brown reds longer than anybody.  They were bred up originally just from easter eggers, as there was no LF color-cross available.   They had good size but lacked in proper, consistent color.  Then I crossed in a part-bantam to improve color and lost the good size in the process.   Later crossed in a LF black to regain size, and ran into more color problems along with single combs and green eggs.  I have a trio I'm pretty happy with right now, plus an extra male bird, but I don't hatch enough in any one year to make rapid progress.   Russ got two pair from me last year at Fowl Fest, and John got the two pullets I showed there.  Holly F. in Iowa came up with her family quite a few years ago and picked up a start in them at my place.   Jim Fegan raised them quite a few years.   Had third best LF Ameraucana overall on a cock bird he got from me at one of our national meets.  I believe that was the last show at Indianapolis in 2011?  Jim sold his.  The birds I have now are medium size, very nice temperaments, and lay nice blue eggs, but the eggs are small to medium in size.  There is always something else to work on. 

[Suki]

Thanks Mike for the little essay on your BR setup.  I didn't know you did LF, so that was a fascinating point in itself.
Sue Paolini

[John W Blehm]

I also had a line of LF brown reds decades ago that I eventually started breeding.  When I created LF blacks I would get birds that leaked brown/red colors and I would sell them as rejects.  I also had them show up from my black bantams.  A customer told me they were brown red.  Since they came out of my blacks it was kind of like building the barn before painting it, since I had been breeding for all the Ameraucana standard traits.  Obviously some of my blacks were split for birchen (E^R) and carried gold (s⁺).  It took a while to get used to the variety, since for a quite a while I thought they were just bad colored blacks.
 

[Suki]

I guess that blacks has some strange outcrosses in them that showed up...so after ditching the variety what brought you back to them?

Sue Paolini
70 degrees and cloudy

[John W Blehm]

I guess that blacks has some strange outcrosses in them that showed up...so after ditching the variety what brought you back to them?

Sue Paolini
70 degrees and cloudy

I know fanciers like to talk about "pure" birds, but no breed or variety is completely pure/homozygous for every possible gene.  On another thread I recently said "It isn't uncommon for more than one E-locus gene to be present in a variety and I've seen it with birchen (ER) showing up for many years in the black variety that should be Extended black (E) and other varieties".
Today I'm quite sure my line of blacks are pure E/E (Extended black) at the E-locus, but even without cross breeding or outcrossing mutations can happen.
I started working on the LF brown reds again a few years ago to try to improve overall size mostly. 

[John W Blehm]

I hatched two chicks today from the LF brown red pullet I'm using, from Mike, with two of my cockerels rotated over her.  One chick is pretty much all black as expected and similar to all the others I hatched so far this year, but one is REALLY different. 
What do you think?

[Mike Gilbert]

I think it is a recessive throwback to a different e allele.   Probably eb, but possibly could be e+ with modifiers.   That means both parents of this chick are carriers, heterozygous at the e locus.  Are we having fun yet?  Jim Fegan, Holly F., and myself all experienced this at one time or another.  I hadn't had any for the past couple of years and was hoping it was gone from my line, but apparently it is not.  I always figured somebody could make some Buff Columbians out of these by exerting the effort, as that is what they sort of look like as adults.  But it would take some work.  The chick down on this one looks a lot like the Buff Brahma bantam chick down.  I raised those for about 20 years.  In fact my first ABA starred win (100 or more competing) came on a Buff Brahma pullet that I sent to a show with Bernie Kellogg in about 1981.  She was reserve champ bantam of show.