Chocolate Breeding Chart

[Cesar Villegas]

Hi everyone I wanted to post my breeding chart for my chocolate project. I was hoping to get some opinions on it. My goal is to completely remove the chocolate orpington blood that was used to start the project. At the end I want a chocolate bird with correct type and leg color.

I started my breeding program with a 3rd generation chocolate cockerel. Every new generation I'm breeding back to black to either get chocolate females or split black males. I don't plan to breed Chocolate to chocolate anytime soon.

[Lee G]

My word won't let me open your file, but maybe these old charts might help?

[John W Blehm]

Here is Cesar's chart as a jpeg.

[Cesar Villegas]

Thanks John for converting it to JPEG. My chart looks a little different than the examples you provided. My goal was to keep breeding the chocolate gene through each generation. I really dont want to breed choc x choc gene together until i get good egg/leg color and type.

Is my chart ok? or should I do something different?

[Mike Gilbert]

I don't think I would use the percentage of males and females in the chart, as there are no guarantees as to gender.    For example, I raised 11 or 12 white Ameraucana bantams last year, and only one turned out to be a pullet.    I understand that 50% of each gender can be expected from very large numbers of chicks hatched, but in smaller hatches those numbers can be very skewed one way or the other. 

[Cesar Villegas]

Mike the % is in relation to how much Ameraucana genetics they potentially have. I'm basing this off my chocolate breeding cockerel that is 3rd generation so im figuring he's 7/8 or 87.5 % Ameraucana. I converted fractions into a % and got that %. " I could be wrong"

I should know the sexes right away when I breed (split black) x (black) since 25% of the offspring will result in chocolate females. I wont be using any black males, since I cant tell the difference between pure black and split black males. And black females wont carry the chocolate gene so i have no need for them. So I will be only using chocolate females from (Split black x Black) mating.

When I breed (Pure Black Male x Chocolate female), I will have to hatch out more than usual since all offspring will be black with males being split black. - " Im going to use split black males from this cross, to breed back to pure black female. In order to get another chocolate female, to breed back to a pure black male". I hope you can see the pattern Im trying to follow here.

Am I off the wall here ? haha  I'm just trying to get away from the orpington blood all together. I created the chart with how the recessive chocolate gene works.

[John W Blehm]

My problem with the fractions/percentages is that they are trying to represent 100% of a bird...all genes involved.  I understand we talk about a bird being 1/2, 3/4 Ameraucana or whatever, but all individual traits/chacteristics aren't created equal.  For some individual traits (e.g., muffs/beard) you may only need a couple generations to be "pure" for them.  For other traits, especially those that may involve extra unknown modifying genes (e.g., egg color), you may not be at 100% for that trait even after 10 generations.
Of course this is just my opinion and I'm not saying your plan of attack is wrong.  As you look to lose the Orpington "look", try to find Ameraucana breeders (not necessarily show quality), that may "over compensate" to get you to your goal quicker.

[Cesar Villegas]

John I appreciate the advise, Im having a little ESL moment here lol, I'm a little confused with the meaning of "over compensate"? and how would it help me get to my goal quicker.

[John W Blehm]

John I appreciate the advise, Im having a little ESL moment here lol, I'm a little confused with the meaning of "over compensate"? and how would it help me get to my goal quicker.

I guess the example that comes to mind is Orpingtons are "soft" feathered.  Ameraucanas should be kind of average/medium feathered.  So, if you can find a "hard" feathered Ameraucana to breed from you could over compensate for the "soft" side of the mating that the Orp is passing to the next generation. 
If the eggs are too dark from the project pullets, then use an Ameraucana cockerel that hatched from a very light blue egg.
Maybe use Ameraucanas with extra small combs to over compensate for large comb size the Orps may have brought into the mix.
Stuff like that. 

[Mike Gilbert]

Another term for it is "compensation mating."    Some recessive traits are very difficult to breed out without test mating.   For example single combs keep popping up in Wyandotte bantams - even though the parents are considered 100% Wyandotte.   The percentages are theoretical, because genes are inherited individually (though some are linked) and there are a lot of them. 

[Cesar Villegas]

Thanks John and Mike I appreciate all the input.

So far I have 4 split black chicks that hatched in early march, from my pullet whose laying really blue eggs and has almost a non existent comb. I will breed for good traits. Hopefully the black Ameraucanas chicks, I got from Jan Geis will help with type. They will be ready to breed together hopefully by the end of the year.

[Suki]

Hi Cesar,  What are you using for the chocolate?

[Cesar Villegas]

Hi Cesar,  What are you using for the chocolate?

Im using a 3rd generation chocolate rooster. He's roughly 85% Ameraucana and 15% chocololate orpington. He was bred to black ameraucana pullets. That gave me chocolate sexlink females and black males split for chocolate gene. 

[Suki]

A breeder of chocolate Orpingtons, Hog Creek Ranch, put this up on chocolate genetics.  I've uploaded the 4 pages to flickr as i know many are not on Fb to view it.  I haven't read it yet, but I thought since some are interested in choco this may be of interest.

https://flic.kr/p/Ed9RL4

[Suki]

This is from Dian Gardner of The Coop and FB's Poultry Genetics.  She is a moderator at the latter site.


https://flic.kr/p/J2VJah