Laced Blues

[Justin Snyder]

If we are breeding blues with lacing do we want to base them on E or E^R?

Here are some of the varieties that can be built from these foundational genes...
E = black, white, lavender, blue, splash
E^R = brown red, blue, splash, birchen, lavender, white, black
e^Wh = buff, wheaten, blue wheaten
e+ = silver
e^b = partridge, buff
e^y = wheaten, blue wheaten, buff

[Mike Gilbert]

 ER would be my preference.   Also, I don't think buff should be built on eb, as they would have gray undercolor, and Buff should be buff all the way to the stem of the feather.   I have some of those right now in my Buff Chanteclers after crossing them with Partridge.

[John W Blehm]

Justin,

Birchen (E^R) is what Mike and I have recommended for several years for laced blue.  Note the quote of mine you included with your question lists the e-locus genes I believe the varieties, listed after them, can be based on...but the underlined variety names are the ones I believe would be best.

Some do still breed blues to blacks, but the current opinion is that the best blues are based on birchen (E^R) while the best blacks, lavenders and whites should be based on Extended black (E).  E produces the best solid colored varieties.  Blue is really Laced Blue, so it isn't a solid color and some assume E^R is a better base color/pattern to build it on.   

Quote from: http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/

Further research by Dr Okimoto (quote from Classroom @ The Coop: Blue & E/ or E^R/, posted May 02, 2006) ......
Some of us speculated that Andalusian blue used E^R instead of E because ER would be more amenable to secondary pattern genes like Pg. I recently tested some Andalusian Blues from McMurray. I had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous E^R E^R and the third was heterozygous E E^R. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably E^R.

[Suki]

I don't get into the genetics, I just eyeball it.  They either have lacing or don't.  If they don't they're dinner.  What their genetic makeup is between them and Ancestry.com.

[Justin Snyder]

Mike and John
Thanks, I have actually been trying to base all of my blues on E^R for years based on the information in this quote and the fact that it is a pattern gene not solid. I just want to make sure I am building on what the experts think and not screwing up what others have started. 

Suki,
When I get a lot more experience I might eyeball it. But I need all the help I can get so I will try to make it an educated guess rather than a guess. 

[Megan Knowlan]

John (or anyone),

I'm still very much a newbie and I don't understand what birchen is. Can you please explain this color to me? I have downsized, keeping only my absolute best for show purposes and have 3 black hens, 1 blue hen, and 2 black roosters. What's the best way to work this combination, other than obviously needing to hatch more blues. How should I incorporate birchen?

[Mike Gilbert]

John (or anyone),

I'm still very much a newbie and I don't understand what birchen is. Can you please explain this color to me? I have downsized, keeping only my absolute best for show purposes and have 3 black hens, 1 blue hen, and 2 black roosters. What's the best way to work this combination, other than obviously needing to hatch more blues. How should I incorporate birchen?

Why would you want to?   They are not a recognized variety for the Ameraucana breed, and they have different genetics than your Blacks and Blues.   I am unaware of anyone breeding large fowl Birchen right now.   Birchen is just the silver version of Brown Red.   I had them years ago, but they did not draw any interest at that time.   Both Birchen and Brown Red are very difficult to breed true for correct color - much different than solid colors or even Blue.  You could do an internet search for Birchen chicken to see pictures.   Here is a link:  https://www.cacklehatchery.com/product/birchen-cochin-bantam/      If you are just talking about the "birchen" e-locus, you may or may not already have that.   What you need in addition to that to make laced blues is three other genes, Pg, Ml, and Co.    The best way to get them is to cross in a well laced Blue.   

[John W Blehm]

John (or anyone),

I'm still very much a newbie and I don't understand what birchen is. Can you please explain this color to me? I have downsized, keeping only my absolute best for show purposes and have 3 black hens, 1 blue hen, and 2 black roosters. What's the best way to work this combination, other than obviously needing to hatch more blues. How should I incorporate birchen?

It is confusing because "birchen" is both the name of a variety of chicken and the name of a gene.  In this topic we are mostly talking about the Birchen (E^R) E-locus gene and not the birchen variety (color/pattern).  I go into more detail in the Chick Phenotype topic that is pinned under this "Breeding" subforum.  Also check out the E-Locus topic/thread that is pinned there too.  I think those topics will help.  "Wheaten" is another word that is also both the name of a variety of chicken and the name of a chicken gene or two.  And, there are other poultry related terms/words with more than one meaning that can add to the confusion.
 
Although many fanciers still cross blacks and blues calling them "BBS" (Black, Blue Splash) to produce both black and blue chicks, the black and blue varieties should be based on different E-locus genes to produce the best colors/patterns.  So, breeding the best blues among themselves will produce the best blue offspring.  The best blues have the base primary E-locus gene "Birchen" (E^R) and secondary pattern genes: Pattern gene (Pg), Melanotic (Ml) and probably Columbian (Co) along with eumelanin extenders.   

[Megan Knowlan]

That makes sense. I really appreciate the help from y'all. And the links were very informative.. something I'll definitely be referring back to!

[Suki]

John wrote... The best blues have the base primary E-locus gene "Birchen" (ER) and secondary pattern genes: Pattern gene (Pg), Melanotic (Ml) and probably Columbian (Co) along with eumelanin extenders...

Maybe but going for Columbians...light sussex, or even those birchens are a lot of work.  Better to get a blue already with it, though I admit anyone with good blues does not sell, at least in Ams, so i am not sure that blue Ams are a viable variety. I write that as i have several blue Ams and when I see blue in the show they are either super light with outlining  or very dark.  The darks win in greater numbers, I have never seen a blue Am as good as the blue Langshan that went Super Grand Champion at the Congress, and I know it took him 15 years to get there.  This picture of Reese's bird is pretty lame; he in reality a spectacular bird.  He is Bob Rhodes,  that Mike Gilbert knows from CFI, son. 

http://www.poultrycongress.com/2016-Results.html

[John W Blehm]

...Better to get a blue already with it, though I admit anyone with good blues does not sell, at least in Ams, so i am not sure that blue Ams are a viable variety. I write that as i have several blue Ams and when I see blue in the show they are either super light with outlining  or very dark...

Max made it possible for McMurray Hatchery to offer large fowl "laced" blue Ameraucanas. Of course they are McMurray's line, not Max's, that they sell, so depending on their breeding the chicks customers get will be as good as the birds they started their flock with or they could go down hill. 

On 6/24/2020 8:27 AM, Max Strawn wrote:
Good morning Mike!

I was contacted by Tom Watkins from McMurray Hatchery last winter. He said he had spoken with you about acquiring my line of large fowl Blue Ameraucana. Long story short, he hatched some chicks from the eggs I sent to him. Thank you for the recommendation. It's exciting to know that McMurray Hatchery will be promoting true Ameraucana!

Max

[Justin Snyder]

Better to get a blue already with it, though I admit anyone with good blues does not sell, at least in Ams, so i am not sure that blue Ams are a viable variety. I write that as i have several blue Ams and when I see blue in the show they are either super light with outlining  or very dark. 
http://www.poultrycongress.com/2016-Results.html

I like the darker birds, but I got one a couple of years ago from someone in the other AM group and I honestly thought he was black when I first opened the shipping container. He didn't stay long. I was able to get some  chicks with lacing. They don't all carry 2 copies so it will take some work. I will be selective until I fix that problem.  That is why I am asking the questions. We need to get the blue Am to the point to beat the blue Langshan. 

[Suki]

That's the spirit Justin.  At least with McMurray there is someplace to get a good start and from there hit the shows and see what you can pick up.  Seeing and buying in person is the best way to build up your flock, Best of luck S~

[Suki]

John wrote from Okimoto... had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous ER ER and the third was heterozygous E ER. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably ER..

..so based on that breeding for blue means grey chicks...toss the others.  That's a good tip.  THanks.

[John W Blehm]

John wrote from Okimoto...

had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous E^R E^R and the third was heterozygous E E^R. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably E^R.

..so based on that breeding for blue means grey chicks...toss the others.  That's a good tip.  THanks.

If you are breeding blue to blue I would agree only chicks with gray/blue down will mature into blues and the others will be black or splash. 
In the quote from Ron Okimoto, he is saying out of an assortment of many breeds & probably varieties of chicks from a hatchery order only thee chicks were gray/blue.  He tested those three finding E^R as the prevalent e-locus gene and assumes show quality blues are pure for it.