Chick Phenotype

[John W Blehm]

This subject is covered in my Ameraucana Chickens book.

John W Blehm

[Mike Gilbert]

So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately.   When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing.   But all of us were in that place at one time or another.   The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know. 

[Holly Frosch]

E^R is called birchen and sometimes crow wing. Birchen is also the name of a color/pattern variety of chickens that is based on the E-locus birchen (E^R) gene.  You can tell a birchen Ameraucana male from a silver Ameraucana male by the area known as the wing triangle.
When you add extra genes like, one copy of blue (Bl/bl+), pattern (Pg), melanotic (Ml), maybe Columbian (Co), plus some unknown eumelanin extenders (to darken feathers in more areas) you get laced blue or the variety the APA/ABA refers to as "blue".  The one blue gene modifies black to blue/gray and the pattern gene with melanotic and Columbian added the lacing as seen in Andalusian blue.  Some laced blue chickens are based on E, but Dr. Ron Okimoto said...
(quote from Classroom @ The Coop: Blue & E/ or ER/, posted May 02, 2006)

Some of us speculated that Andalusian blue used E^R instead of E because E^R would be more amenable to secondary pattern genes like Pg. I recently tested some Andalusian Blues from McMurray. I had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous E^R/E^R and the third was heterozygous E/E^R. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably E^R.

I like this thread, John. 

Questions:
Is your opinion that the difference between a properly laced blue and a silver laced would be the eumelanin enhancers (and Bl, certainly)? Or perhaps the blues are lacking a restrictor such as Db?

What do you think of the role of Co in shafting? I've come up with several individuals that are laced to varying degrees out of our brown reds (and crosses to black). F2s from crosses to black range from no shafting to seeing that center "explode" into lacing.

[Mike Gilbert]

Holly, if you mean Silver Laced as in Wyandottes, the Silver Laced pattern is based on eb (brown) rather than E or Er.     You can find the combination of genes that make up silver laced and Andalusian blue on the Sellers website.     http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html#t16   
Co is an incompletely dominant gene, and as such would probably do more to the brown red pattern than just create shafting in my opinion.  Perhaps one copy rather than two might be a potential cause of shafting.   Shafting has not been really studied all that much as there is little commercial value in doing so. 

[Holly Frosch]

Thank you, Mike!

I had intended laced as in Sebright, based on ER. I see via the link you provided that the difference is, indeed, Db. They also have the base of Andalusian blue indicated as E. There seems to be lack of consensus on E vs. ER, perhaps due to the c. 1990 Carefoot paper. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468?journalCode=cbps20

[Tailfeathers]

Note the clean lines, on the arrow, on the head of the Junglefowl chicks and select silver Ameraucana chicks as close to that look as possible.  The same applies to the eye stripe and any other designs you see in the pattern.

John, feel free to delete this after you see it but I thought I'd make a comment here that may be helpful.  I breed and show Welsummers, and while I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to the e+,  ey or eWh, or any of that stuff, I can tell you that I can see the Welsummers at hatch with 100% accuracy based on their headcap and eyeliner.

If the chick has a well-defined, sharp headcap and eye-liners it's a female.  If the headcap is more fuzzy and less defined and missing eye-liners it's a male.  Perhaps that would hold true with those Silvers and might be helpful to someone.

[Cesar Villegas]

John, Under reply #1 you posted a picture of bad white coloring chicks. What makes them bad? Wont they feather out white?

[Cesar Villegas]

John, Under reply #1 you posted a picture of bad white coloring chicks. What makes them bad? Wont they feather out white?

Check out the last sentence in that post...

Beware of unwanted modifying genes that produce more blackish day-old chicks (see photo), since they don't mature into nice "clean" white adults.

Also check out my Reply #24 in this thread...
http://ameraucanaalliance.org/forum/index.php?topic=322.15
...and there is a link there to more on the subject @The Coop

Thanks John, I see it now

[Jensen Pierson]

And now I know why I have two chicks in this years hatch that are white. At first I thought I got a weird splash, now I am thinking they are resesive white.

[Mike Gilbert]

And now I know why I have two chicks in this years hatch that are white. At first I thought I got a weird splash, now I am thinking they are resesive white.

Which means both their sire and dam are carriers of recessive white.   Bred together, they will breed true for white.  Bear in mind there is often leakage of a few black or gray feathers in recessive whites.  People who show them routinely pluck the offending feathers, just as breeders of barred birds pluck solid black feathers, and white crested polish breeders pluck black feathers from the crest.   I'm not saying it is right, just that it is commonly done. 

[Janie Vila]

Thank you for this thread. It is incredibly informative to those that really want to learn the genetics behind this awesome breed.

[Alyssa Kim]

So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately.   When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing.   But all of us were in that place at one time or another.   The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.

A statement that reigns so true in my life!

I guess I am there now... at the BBS cross road (with my other breeds). Can you please elaborate or point me in the right direction to learn what I am missing?  Thank you

Lots of other good info here to... slowly sinking in and being mulled over. 

[Cesar Villegas]

So that is another good reason not to be crossing blues with blacks more or less indiscriminately.   When I see somebody advertising BBS, it tells me they probably don't know what they are doing.   But all of us were in that place at one time or another.   The more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know.

A statement that reigns so true in my life!

I guess I am there now... at the BBS cross road (with my other breeds). Can you please elaborate or point me in the right direction to learn what I am missing?  Thank you

Lots of other good info here to... slowly sinking in and being mulled over. 

Well BBS as you know are three different color varieties. Yes, the genetics do compliment each other. But continually crossing them doesnt give you a consistent breeding program. Thats why you see inconsistent shades of blue with BBS crossing, Blacks with purple sheen, blues with no lacing/edging, different body types etc.

Its not a coincident that the best blacks come from an all black flock, best blues come from carefully breeding blues, with sometimes a little black here and there 

Here's my take on BBS from the quote below. (I, Replaced the word "scientist")

"Yeah, yeah, but your Ameraucana breeders were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should."
-Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park

[Tailfeathers]

Well, I suppose it's time to show my ignorance publicly again.  I've often heard and read that to keep a good Blue and not having them "washout" that one should cross them with a Black.  I definitely could be wrong but I thinking I saw that on here.  From John maybe?

If it's true that Blues shouldn't be crossed to Blacks then what about the WBS?  I've not concerned myself at all with breeding the W to W or the BW to BW.  My breeding program has always been focused on the best 4-6 sisters to the cockbird without any concern as to whether they were W or BW.  It's routine for me to breed a mix of W & BW sisters to a W or BW cockbird knowing that I would continue to get both from the mating.

So am I losing out on something?

[Mike Gilbert]

Personally I gave up on blue wheaten quite a while ago.  I don't believe anyone can breed them close enough to the Standard to win more than BV at any show with at least some modest competition.  If you breed them just because you like the color/pattern then enjoy them.

And yet Jerry DeSmidt took a BB on a bantam Blue Wheaten female at the Ohio National a number of years ago, and Russ took BB on a Blue Wheaten cock at our AA National Meet in 2017.   So it can be done.